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Is it ethical to give away your TMs to agencies?
Thread poster: Tom in London
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 03:12
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Italian to English
Mar 30, 2020

Here's the elephant in the room about CAT tools - the thing nobody ever talks about:

The widespread adoption of CAT tools is giving agencies the opportunity to demand that once a job is done, the translator must hand over their TM. The agency then uses this TM to force other translators to charge much less, because the other translators are given the TM and can just load it into their own CAT tool.

I think translators have been shooting themselves in the foot with this
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Here's the elephant in the room about CAT tools - the thing nobody ever talks about:

The widespread adoption of CAT tools is giving agencies the opportunity to demand that once a job is done, the translator must hand over their TM. The agency then uses this TM to force other translators to charge much less, because the other translators are given the TM and can just load it into their own CAT tool.

I think translators have been shooting themselves in the foot with this, but I fear it’s probably too late now for us to think about protecting ourselves by making it illegal to give away our TMs. To me that is the equivalent of giving away intellectual property - for nothing !

I have been charging Italian agencies the same rate since 2012 - nearly 10 years ago - and for about the first 8 years I was getting tons of work from them. I never increased my rate but gradually, more and more of those agencies started telling me that I’m “too expensive”.

In other words: whilst I was holding my rate steady they were cutting what they were willing to pay. This took place over a 10-year period in which the use of CAT tools was becoming more and more widespread. So the two things are clearly related.

Agencies want us to use CAT tools so that they can get hold of our TMs, for nothing.

Discuss.


[Edited at 2020-03-30 09:15 GMT]
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Alice Crisan
Yolanda Broad
 
Samuel Murray
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@Tom Mar 30, 2020

Tom in London wrote:
Is it ethical to give away your TMs to agencies?


This used to be a question, back in the day when the delivery format in most CAT tools was not an intermediary bilingual file format. But these days, most modern CAT tools do use bilingual file formats in such a way that you deliver them to the client anyway, so even if you do not share your TM with the client, he has access to it with the bilingual file. (This does not apply to OmegaT and CafeTran, which you have been sampling.)

In addition, alignment tools have become very smart and it is no longer a big hurdle for someone who can't speak either source or target language to create a TM using their original source text and your translation. This means that if you're not really preventing the agency from re-using your translations even if you refuse to share with him your TM.

So, these days, agreeing to share your TM with the client is no longer the handing over of intellectual property or the giving away work for free, but simply offering added value by reducing effort for your client, at no extra cost to you.

The agency then uses this TM to force other translators to charge much less, because the other translators are given the TM and can just load it into their own CAT tool.


Yes, but any translator who accepts a lower rate without actually receiving the means to do the job faster (so as to make up for the "lost" income), is being silly. Odds are such translators might have been willing to accept lower rates for a variety of other excuses, too. So let's not blame TMs for this.

I have been charging Italian agencies the same rate since 2012 and for about the first 8 years I was getting tons of work from them. I never increased my rate but gradually, more and more of those agencies started telling me that I’m “too expensive”.


I don't think there is a correlation between the level of the base rate and the availability of fuzzy matching.

If you're offered a translation of 10 000 words but the weighted word count is 8 000 words, and your base rate is e.g. GBP 0.10 per weighted word, then you'll get GBP 800 for the job, not GBP 1000. So, in that sense, the rate for the job as whole is going to be less, but from the agency's perspective they're still paying you the same (i.e. GBP 0.10 per word).

If you charged GBP 0.10 per [weighted] word but agencies want to pay only GBP 0.08 per weighted word, then that's not because of TMs. Rather, it's likely because the agencies are competing with each other to win contracts with clients who have realised that shopping around may get you a lower price.


[Edited at 2020-03-30 09:42 GMT]


ahartje
Recep Kurt
 
Tom in London
Tom in London
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Italian to English
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Access Mar 30, 2020

Samuel Murray wrote:

.....most modern CAT tools do use bilingual file formats in such a way that you deliver them to the client anyway, so even if you do not share your TM with the client, he has access to it with the bilingual file


Not if the client sent me a Word file and I deliver the same file, translated.


 
Thomas Pfann
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No agency wants your TMs Mar 30, 2020

Why would an agency want your TMs?

In my 20 years as a translator, first working inhouse at an agency and the last 14 years as a freelancer mostly working for agencies, I never asked translators for their TMs, nor was I ever asked for my TMs, nor did I ever encounter a colleague who was asked for their TMs.

Occasionally, translators think they are being asked for their TMs but so far this has always turned out to be a misunderstanding. Agencies don't want your TM
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Why would an agency want your TMs?

In my 20 years as a translator, first working inhouse at an agency and the last 14 years as a freelancer mostly working for agencies, I never asked translators for their TMs, nor was I ever asked for my TMs, nor did I ever encounter a colleague who was asked for their TMs.

Occasionally, translators think they are being asked for their TMs but so far this has always turned out to be a misunderstanding. Agencies don't want your TMs. They might want your bilingual file or a TM of the particular job you were doing for them, but they certainly would not want to contaminate their own TMs with other people's TMs.
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Gerard de Noord
 
Tom in London
Tom in London
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Rephrase Mar 30, 2020

Thomas Pfann wrote:

Why would an agency want your TMs?

In my 20 years as a translator, first working inhouse at an agency and the last 14 years as a freelancer mostly working for agencies, I never asked translators for their TMs, nor was I ever asked for my TMs, nor did I ever encounter a colleague who was asked for their TMs.

Occasionally, translators think they are being asked for their TMs but so far this has always turned out to be a misunderstanding. Agencies don't want your TMs. They might want your bilingual file or a TM of the particular job you were doing for them, but they certainly would not want to contaminate their own TMs with other people's TMs.


OK let me rephrase my question:

Is it ethical to give away your bilingual files to agencies?


Yolanda Broad
Christine Andersen
 
Thomas Pfann
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Yes, it is ethical to deliver bilingual files if that's what your client asked for Mar 30, 2020

Is it ethical to give away your bilingual files to agencies? Yes.

You could, of course, try to deliver your translations in a non-editable format, maybe a screen capture or as a handwritten document. Just to make sure your client can't reuse it or parts of it. In the same way companies like Microsoft try to lock their users into using their products (something which is often described as unethical).


Gerard de Noord
 
Samuel Murray
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@Tom Mar 30, 2020

Tom in London wrote:
Samuel Murray wrote:
Most modern CAT tools do use bilingual file formats in such a way that you deliver them to the client anyway, so even if you do not share your TM with the client, he has access to it with the bilingual file.

Not if the client sent me a Word file and I deliver the same file, translated.

Does that not go without saying?

Tom in London wrote:
OK let me rephrase my question:
Is it ethical to give away your bilingual files to agencies?


I can see how it may be a question of ethics for freelancers to provide source materials to clients in addition to the final work product, but that really only applies to situations where the client can't easily generate an exact copy of the source materials using the work product.

For example, if a photographer does not give you the film negatives (or in the modern world: the RAW files or original-quality JPGs) but only the final prints, no client will be able to generate an identical or even a similar RAW file from it, in order to bypass the photographer when future work is needed. You can tell us what the architect version of this is, but I imagine that while an architect is generally required to hand over the printed plans, it is unlikely that any client would be able to convert the printout back to a CAD format, and if a client hires a new architect, that other architect will not be able to generate a drawing from the printout (regardless of whether that would be legal anyway). Or, when you go a restaurant, a food expert might be able to deduce what ingredients are in the food, but it is unlikely that they would be able to figure out what the exact recipe is without a fair bit of effort.

With translations, however, modern technology makes it possible and in fact very easy in most cases for clients to re-generate raw material that is very similar or identical to the raw material used by the translator. The translator who refuses to hand over such materials isn't truly denying the client the ability to create additional derivative works. Translators who do hand it over, are not giving clients any additional or unfair advantage over themselves or their colleagues.

Thomas Pfann wrote:
You could, of course, try to deliver your translations in a non-editable format.


Yes, let's imagine translators asking very similar questions in the 1980s, when word processors were becoming more widely used: is it ethical to provide the client with a copy of the translation in electronic format, in addition to printed paper?


[Edited at 2020-03-30 10:51 GMT]


Viesturs Lacis
 
Viesturs Lacis
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Interesting that you should mention intellectual property... Mar 30, 2020

Tom in London wrote:

Samuel Murray wrote:

.....most modern CAT tools do use bilingual file formats in such a way that you deliver them to the client anyway, so even if you do not share your TM with the client, he has access to it with the bilingual file


Not if the client sent me a Word file and I deliver the same file, translated.

...because in the digital realm, it is always safe to assume that everything that can be displayed can be copied. That is why I always get a good laugh when I encounter a website that proudly "disables" right-clicking to dissuade users from saving its content to their devices. Usually, it adds no more than a few extra mouse clicks to the effort.

The same holds true for TMs. Anyone who has the source file, the target file and an alignment tool, can recreate a TM from the content within a fraction of the time it took to actually translate the document. It may be harder if the text has undergone extensive sentence joining and splicing, or if the innards of the original Word file are hideously complex (this file format is notorious for becoming more bloated and unreliable through extended editing, due to various reasons that require an in-depth technical explanation), but then in such cases using a CAT tool might not have been the best idea in the first place.


Alice Crisan
 
Tom in London
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Pandora's box Mar 30, 2020

Samuel Murray wrote:

You can tell us what the architect version of this is, but I imagine that while an architect is generally required to hand over the printed plans, it is unlikely that any client would be able to convert the printout back to a CAD format, and if a client hires a new architect, that other architect will not be able to generate a drawing from the printout (regardless of whether that would be legal anyway)


Samuel, you have opened a Pandora's box here - a box of liability and intellectual property. In today's architecture construction world, CAD and BIM technology mean that a large team of architects, engineers, quantity surveyors, constructors, etc. may all be working on the same drawing file/files, in different countries and time zones. Keeping up with what has changed, who changed it, who is liable, etc., can be a nightmare. Actual ownership of the file/s, at any given time, is a very moot point and I'd rather not go there today....

With translations ...it is...very easy in most cases for clients to re-generate raw material that is very similar or identical to the raw material used by the translator. The translator who refuses to hand over such materials isn't truly denying the client the ability to create additional derivative works.


Sure- and it was ever thus.

Translators who do hand over (the bilingual file) are not giving clients any additional or unfair advantage over themselves or their colleagues.


I think they are, and if the client then passes on the bilingual file to another translator asking for a discount, I do think that is unethical.

My underlying point remains: the main purpose of CAT tools is not to speed up or improve a translation but to enable agencies to reduce their rates by passing on bilingual files, or TMs, to other translators. This is going to end badly as rates go down and down.


Alice Crisan
 
Samuel Murray
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@Tom Mar 30, 2020

Tom in London wrote:
In today's architecture construction world, CAD and BIM technology mean that a large team of architects, engineers, quantity surveyors, constructors, etc.


Of course, for large projects different rules apply than for small projects. If you are the one who does all the work and delivers the final product, it is much less necessary for you to share the bilingual file than if you were one of many translators, editors, proofreaders, etc. who all need to work on the same file or versions of the same file to produce the final product. This is one of the main reasons for delivering in bilingual format: if the translator is not the final person to work on the file.

And something about goal posts.


 
Viesturs Lacis
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Latvia
Local time: 05:12
English to Latvian
Mar 30, 2020

Tom in London wrote:
My underlying point remains: the main purpose of CAT tools is not to speed up or improve a translation but to enable agencies to reduce their rates by passing on bilingual files, or TMs, to other translators. This is going to end badly as rates go down and down.

For me, the main purpose of using a CAT tool has been exactly that: to speed up my workflow and improve its consistency. I refuse to think of rates in isolation when they are directly tied to changes in productivity. Let's suppose I translate 500 words an hour and charge 0.10 EUR per word. I then buy a CAT tool and, for the sake of argument, "let" an agency reduce my rate to 0.07 EUR per word. Guess what? In the meantime, using my new software has increased my productivity to 800 words an hour. Now my hourly earnings are actually 6 EUR higher. Assuming the price of the CAT tool was 500 EUR, it will have paid for itself well before the hundred hour mark.

Of course, the "market rate" falling to 0.07 EUR (because, naturally, I am hardly the only one to introduce a CAT tool in my workflow) means bad news for those who have stayed behind. But I don't see why I should feel more sympathy for them than I would feel for people who want to keep running a delivery service using horses and carts rather than cars and trucks, or for lawyers who refuse to subscribe to electronic databases to be able to pad their billable hours by doing paper-based research. If they have made a choice to deliberately forgo learning to use and "tame" a superior technology out of sheer principle, let the market be the judge of whether these approaches can coexist.


 
Tom in London
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Words Mar 30, 2020

It's interesting to see some of you people talking about words as though they were cans of vegetables being moved along a production line - and the more cans you push through per hour, the better. This is so far from my concept of translation that I feel we're on different planets. Plus there's this ingenuous belief that technology is wonderful.

Anne Grimes
Alice Crisan
 
Viesturs Lacis
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Latvia
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Mar 30, 2020

Tom in London wrote:

It's interesting to see some of you people talking about words as though they were cans of vegetables being moved along a production line - and the more cans you push through per hour, the better.

Given that words are part of the formula used to calculate my pay, it is merely good business sense for me to be aware of general trends in my output and the factors that affect it. Nobody is saying this needs to happen at the expense of quality.

This is so far from my concept of translation that I feel we're on different planets.

Depending on what exactly said concept entails, it may be less universal than believed and may require certain adjustments for different situations and scenarios.

Plus there's this ingenuous belief that technology is wonderful.

Technology is wonderful - if (and only if) you want and are able to make it work for you. Maybe I'm just unusually adept at it and it clouds my perception, who knows. Unlike some corporate innovators and visionaries, I've never believed in changing things for change's sake - there are plenty of innovations I consider irrelevant or even detrimental to my needs. You bet I will always keep an open mind towards various ways to improve my life and my work, though.


 
Tom in London
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Wonderful Mar 30, 2020

Viesturs Lacis wrote:

Technology is wonderful



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZp4AJ1RDQc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmAbcDud2L8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjtsbAckbTg


Etc.


 
The Misha
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You do seem to be on a different planet, I am afraid Mar 30, 2020

Tom in London wrote:

This is so far from my concept of translation that I feel we're on different planets.


One where, for reasons unknown, it is morally reprehensible to dispose of your own intellectual property, such as a TM you generated, as you see fit.

I mean, I do understand how one may find something personally unacceptable and refuse to do it. That's fine. But why on earth drag everyone else along? Why agitate for that "World revolution"? Is that ethical?


 
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