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“龙”的英文应该翻译成 Loong - 转发 (A Chinese Teacher Suggests that "Dragon" should be written as "Loong")
Thread poster: Libin PhD
wherestip
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无往不胜 Mar 3

Royal Navy Guided Missile Destroyer - D35 HMS Dragon

https://www.seaforces.org/marint/Royal-Navy/Destroyer/D-35-HMS-Dragon.htm





Homeport: HMNB Portsmouth, New Hampshire
Ships Motto: WE YIELD BUT TO ST. GEORGE

No one could stop us except for the dragon slayer St. George, our patron saint (but why would he?)



History and meaning of the Welsh flag ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVPXFZIOY2w



[Edited at 2024-03-03 15:23 GMT]


 
ysun
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座右铭 vs. 最高指示 Mar 3

hj58 wrote:

dragon 号的座右铭当然是幽默,但是中国的威龙号军舰 Powerful Dragon 号可以玩这个幽默吗?“我们只向圣乔治屈服”?“我们只向哪吒(女娲、周处)让步”?

ysun wrote:

他们以 We yield but to St George 作为座右铭,大概是一种幽默吧!这句话也可理解为 "We yield to nobody but St George"。此处,but 相当于 except。

例如,美国国会开会时,每位议员发言都有一定时间限制,但若谁没用完分配给他的时间,经议长同意后,可以让给别人使用。有一次开会时,一位议员 Mr. Dyer 对议长说,I yield four minutes to the gentleman from Illinois (Mr. Fowler)。接着,Mr. Fowler 在发言时首先声明,I yield to nobody but God and my constituency,结果引起哄堂大笑和掌声!


wherestip wrote:

无往不胜
...
Royal Navy Guided Missile Destroyer - D35 HMS Dragon
...
Ships Motto: WE YIELD BUT TO ST. GEORGE

Nothing could stop us except for the dragon slayer St. George, our patron saint (but why would he?)

History and meaning of the Welsh flag ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVPXFZIOY2w


中国人民解放军当然不会“玩这个幽默”,也不会把 Dragon 号军舰的座右铭直译成大白话:“我们只向圣乔治屈服”。解放军往往会以这样的“最高指示”作为座右铭:“这个军队具有一往无前的精神,它要压倒一切敌人,而决不被敌人所屈服。不论在任何艰难困苦的场合,只要还有一个人,这个人就要继续战斗下去。”(1945年4月24日《论联合政府》)

文革期间,你大概正在上小学。我想,这样的“最高指示”你会背得滚瓜烂熟吧?

"We yield but to St. George" 的句型跟 "I yield to nobody but God" 不是一样的吗?该座右铭的意思就是不向任何凡人屈服而“勇往直前、无往不胜、所向披靡”。这跟“最高指示”里“压倒一切敌人,而决不被敌人所屈服”的意思,岂不是一样的吗?你何必如此挑剔?难道你的意思是 dragon 一上阵就会投降,改名为 loong 就能“压倒一切敌人,而决不被敌人所屈服”了吗?

PLA 空军上将刘亚洲:金门战役检讨
http://www.aisixiang.com/data/2882.html

刘亚洲于2001年发表此文,时任北京军区空军政治部主任。此后,曾历任中国人民解放军空军副政委兼纪委书记、国防大学政委。

美国人反思 American Civil War,称其为 Brother against brother 或 brothers killing brothers(兄弟相残)。龙的传人、龙的文化应该称中国的内战为“豆萁相煎”!

中国人民志愿军第 180 师失利有关问题之我见
(上海大学副研究员,历史学博士严可复)
https://static.mysmth.net/nForum/att/Modern_CHN/707593/978


[修改时间: 2024-03-04 07:17 GMT]


 
pkchan
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Year of the Dragon 2024 Mar 3

s-l1600

直到今年2024年,香港官方首日封仍用 Year of the Dragon,設計張牙舞爪,有霸氣,看不出半點祥和氣氛。

[Edited at 2024-03-03 16:28 GMT]


 
ysun
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Dragon or Loong? Mar 3

壬辰龙票被指“凶神恶煞” 设计者称代表中国自信
https://www.chinanews.com.cn/cul/2012/01-04/3578367.shtml



文博日历丨世界邮政日,一起来看我国第一套邮票“大龙邮票”
https://www.gstv.com.cn/jgn/692335.jhtml



 
pkchan
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Dragon Dance 舞龍 Mar 3

Chinese_draak

大年初二 舞龍表演|2023 Taiwan's Chinese New Year - Dragon Dance Performance
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zm6091k_deM

Dragon Dance in Yuen Long Hong Kong Chinese New Year 2024 @richscenic #richscenic, #dragondance
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7HAl-BVeSQ


 
ysun
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二战时期美国军民对“龙的传人”之高度评价 Mar 3



Why We Fight: The Battle of China
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Battle_of_China

The Lead Up to the Japanese Invasion of China(约7分钟)
https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4680344/lead-japanese-invasion-china

The Battle of China(视频完整版,约1小时)
https://www.c-span.org/video/?432382-1/the-battle-china

二战经典纪录片《我们为何而战 中国战事》(视频完整版)
https://k.sina.cn/article_1499104401_m595a849105300rn4w.html

Why We Fight: The Battle of China 我們為何而戰:中國戰事
(注:此中英对照文字版的编译者做了很好的工作,值得称赞;但他抄录英文解说词时略有错误,应以视频为准。经过核对,我已尽力纠正了以下引用部分里原有的错误。)
https://www.bilibili.com/read/cv14711543/

Of every five persons on the face of the earth, one is Chinese. And since one-fifth of all the human beings in the world are Chinese. We should know what sort of people they are.

Well in all their 4,000 years of continuous history they have never waged a war of conquest. They're that sort of people.
They developed the art of printing from movable type. They invented the mariner's compass, without which no ocean could be crossed. They were among the first astronomers and their observations of the stars and planets made possible the accurate measuring and recording of time. They are that sort of people. And why do we call our dishes china because the Chinese invented the art of making porcelain. And as we all know, they invented gunpowder, not as a weapon of war, celebrate their holidays and religious festivals. And it was one of China's great philosophers who, 500 years before the birth of Christ, gave mankind these words “what you do not want done to yourself, do not do to others”. They are that sort of people, enriching the world in which we live. (中國偉大的哲學家之一在西元前五百年留下了這番話:“己所不欲,勿施於人”。他們就是那種人,豐富了我們所生存的世界。)

Yes China is incredibly old, incredibly big, incredibly populous. Yet it was until recently a land with which few of us concerned ourselves, but now a great change has taken place. China is now our fighting ally, or more accurately, we are China's, for China has been fighting our enemy Japan for seven long years.

...

You will notice that this is a very old piece of film, actually it is more than 30 years old and it shows a very great man by the name of Sun Yat-sen. In 1911 this man fathered a People's Revolution which brought to an end China's ancient imperial government, began its new era as a modern Republic, winning for himself in Chinese history as secure a place as George Washington has in ours. And he and his followers chose for the cornerstone of their new republic. Chinese words that echoed those of another believer in democracy, “government of the people, by the people, for the people”.


其中这句话令我感慨万千:China is now our fighting ally, or more accurately, we are China's, for China has been fighting our enemy Japan for seven long years. (拙译:中国现在是我们的战友,或更准确地说,我们是中国的战友,因为中国已经与我们的敌人日本奋战了七年之久。)


[修改时间: 2024-03-04 18:37 GMT]


 
wherestip
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Men of Harlech Mar 4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbBGWR4VL58


Men of Harlech (Fron Male Voice Choir)

Men of Harlech, march to glory
Victory is hovering o'er ye
Bright-eyed freedom stands before ye
Hear ye not her call?

At your sloth she seems to wonder
Rend the sluggish bonds asunder
Let the war cry's deafening thunder
Every foe
... See more
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbBGWR4VL58


Men of Harlech (Fron Male Voice Choir)

Men of Harlech, march to glory
Victory is hovering o'er ye
Bright-eyed freedom stands before ye
Hear ye not her call?

At your sloth she seems to wonder
Rend the sluggish bonds asunder
Let the war cry's deafening thunder
Every foe appall

Echoes loudly waking
Hill and valley shaking
'Till the sound spreads wide around
The Saxon's courage breaking

Your foes on every side assailing
Forward press with heart unfailing
'Till invaders learn with quailing
Cambria ne'er can yield


Thou who noble Cambria wrongest
Know that freedom's cause is strongest
Freedom's courage lasts the longest
Ending but with death

See they now are flying
Dead are heaped with dying
Over might hath triumphed right
Our land to foes denying

Upon their soil we never sought them
Love of conquest hither brought them
But this lesson we have taught them
Cambria ne'er can yield

But this lesson we have taught them
Cambria ne'er can yield

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZmrS_w6s7s



Men of Harlech* (Charlotte Church)

Hark I hear the foe advancing
Barbed steeds are proudly prancing
Helmets in the sunbeams glancing
Cymru fo am byth

Men of Harlech, why ye dreaming?
See ye not their fired guns gleaming?
Warrior pennants plainly streaming
Cymru fo am byth

From the rocks rebounding
Let the war cry sounding
Summon all at Cambria's call
The haughty foe advancing

Men of Harlech on to glory
See your banner famed in story
Waves these burning words before ye
Cambria would not fall


* Lyrics in English approximated; errors may exist



[Edited at 2024-03-04 17:12 GMT]
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pkchan
 
Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member because it was not in line with site rule
hj58
hj58
Local time: 21:17
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“We yield but to St. George" 的意思 Mar 4

“"We yield but to St. George" 的意思跟 "I yield to nobody but God" 完全不一样。

尤其是在 dragon 号和威尔士公国“军地结对”的情况下。


ysun wrote:

hj58 wrote:

dragon 号的座右铭当然是幽默,但是中国的威龙号军舰 Powerful Dragon 号可以玩这个幽默吗?“我们只向圣乔治屈服”?“我们只向哪吒(女娲、周处)让步”?

ysun wrote:

他们以 We yield but to St George 作为座右铭,大概是一种幽默吧!这句话也可理解为 "We yield to nobody but St George"。此处,but 相当于 except。

例如,美国国会开会时,每位议员发言都有一定时间限制,但若谁没用完分配给他的时间,经议长同意后,可以让给别人使用。有一次开会时,一位议员 Mr. Dyer 对议长说,I yield four minutes to the gentleman from Illinois (Mr. Fowler)。接着,Mr. Fowler 在发言时首先声明,I yield to nobody but God and my constituency,结果引起哄堂大笑和掌声!


wherestip wrote:

无往不胜
...
Royal Navy Guided Missile Destroyer - D35 HMS Dragon
...
Ships Motto: WE YIELD BUT TO ST. GEORGE

Nothing could stop us except for the dragon slayer St. George, our patron saint (but why would he?)

History and meaning of the Welsh flag ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVPXFZIOY2w


中国人民解放军当然不会“玩这个幽默”,也不会把 Dragon 号军舰的座右铭直译成大白话:“我们只向圣乔治屈服”。解放军往往会以这样的“最高指示”作为座右铭:“这个军队具有一往无前的精神,它要压倒一切敌人,而决不被敌人所屈服。不论在任何艰难困苦的场合,只要还有一个人,这个人就要继续战斗下去。”(1945年4月24日《论联合政府》)

文革期间,你大概正在上小学。我想,这样的“最高指示”你会背得滚瓜烂熟吧?

"We yield but to St. George" 的句型跟 "I yield to nobody but God" 不是一样的吗?该座右铭的意思就是不向任何凡人屈服而“勇往直前、无往不胜、所向披靡”。这跟“最高指示”里“压倒一切敌人,而决不被敌人所屈服”的意思,岂不是一样的吗?你何必如此挑剔?难道你的意思是 dragon 一上阵就会投降,改名为 loong 就能“压倒一切敌人,而决不被敌人所屈服”了吗?

PLA 空军上将刘亚洲:金门战役检讨
http://www.aisixiang.com/data/2882.html

刘亚洲于2001年发表此文,时任北京军区空军政治部主任。此后,曾历任中国人民解放军空军副政委兼纪委书记、国防大学政委。

美国人反思 American Civil War,称其为 Brother against brother 或 brothers killing brothers(兄弟相残)。龙的传人、龙的文化应该称中国的内战为“豆萁相煎”!

中国人民志愿军第 180 师失利有关问题之我见
(上海大学副研究员,历史学博士严可复)
https://static.mysmth.net/nForum/att/Modern_CHN/707593/978


[修改时间: 2024-03-04 07:17 GMT]


 
hj58
hj58
Local time: 21:17
English
美国人高度评价中国 dragon 的儿子的同时 Mar 4

二战中,美国人高度评价中国 dragon 的儿子(中国抗日军民)的同时,把日本帝国比喻为邪恶的 dragon。

中国人对 dragon 一词款款深情,恋恋不舍,真有意思。


ysun wrote:



Why We Fight: The Battle of China
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Battle_of_China

The Lead Up to the Japanese Invasion of China(约7分钟)
https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4680344/lead-japanese-invasion-china

The Battle of China(视频完整版,约1小时)
https://www.c-span.org/video/?432382-1/the-battle-china

二战经典纪录片《我们为何而战 中国战事》(视频完整版)
https://k.sina.cn/article_1499104401_m595a849105300rn4w.html

Why We Fight: The Battle of China 我們為何而戰:中國戰事(中英对照文字版)
https://www.bilibili.com/read/cv14711543/

And it was one of China's great philosophers, who 500 years before the birth of Christ, gave mankind these words “what you do not want done to yourself, do not do to others”. They are that sort of people, enriching the world in which we live.

中國偉大的哲學家之一在西元前五百年留下了這番話:“己所不欲,勿施於人”。他們就是那種人,豐富了我們所生存的世界。
...
You will notice that this is a very old piece of film, actually it is more than 30 years old and it shows a very great man by the name of Sun Yat-sen. In 1911 this man fathered a People's Revolution which brought to an end China's ancient imperial government, began its new era as a modern Republic, winning for himself in Chinese history as secure a place as George Washington has in ours. And he and his followers chose for the cornerstone of their new republic. Chinese words that echoed those of another believer in democracy, “government of the people, by the people, for the people”.



[修改时间: 2024-03-04 03:31 GMT]


 
hj58
hj58
Local time: 21:17
English
现在也不用多说了 Mar 4

现在也不用多说了,你们爱 dragon 就继续使用吧。

我本来是想多宣传 loong、多争取一些人支持改译龙的。现在 loong 在国内已经家喻户晓,你们支持不支持已经无所谓了。


 
pkchan
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有關龍的傳人 Mar 4

61983c2ea310cdd3d81b9dc5

什麼龍潭虎穴,海龍王,周處斬蛟龍,龍捲風,水龍捲,通通不是好東西,給人間帶來禍害。所謂龍的傳人說法,源出於台灣歌手侯德健,歌曲背景是台灣在聯合國安理會席位被中國取代,四面楚歌,世界遍佈姑息的劍,加上台美斷交,為提振台人,寫下龍的傳人此歌。在大時代中,侯德健的複雜心情,就在龍的傳人中,表露無遺。現時,盲目自稱是龍的傳人,實缺乏歷史認識。

《龙的传人》的真正作者和原唱
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpVH-KpN_VE


 
wherestip
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句型相同 Mar 4

hj58 wrote:

“"We yield but to St. George" 的意思跟 "I yield to nobody but God" 完全不一样。

尤其是在 dragon 号和威尔士公国“军地结对”的情况下。



hj58,

Sorry to disagree with you, but I agree with ysun on this.

The pattern of these 2 phrases is one and the same. They are exactly identical:

"We yield but to St. George"      "I yield but to God"


Also please keep in mind that the Royal Navy destroyer in question was launched in this century. The vessel's motto has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with any animosity or any other kind of unkind sentiment towards Wales.


STATUS:
Awarded: December 2000
Laid down: December 19, 2005
Launched: November 17, 2008
Commissioned: April 20, 2012
IN SERVICE


BTW, the redundancy in my last sentence is purely for emphasis.



[Edited at 2024-03-04 20:53 GMT]


 
ysun
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这两句的句型确实相同 Mar 4

hj58 wrote:

“"We yield but to St. George" 的意思跟 "I yield to nobody but God" 完全不一样。

尤其是在 dragon 号和威尔士公国“军地结对”的情况下。


正如 wherestip 所说,“The pattern of these 2 phrases is one and the same. They are exactly identical”。

我从未说过 "We yield but to St. George" 的意思跟 "I yield to nobody but God" 一样。我只说过这两句的句型是一样的。是你自己误解了我的意思。可见,阅读外文时,不能光从字面上去理解原文。

ysun wrote:

他们以 We yield but to St George 作为座右铭,大概是一种幽默吧!这句话也可理解为 "We yield to nobody but St George"。此处,but 相当于 except。

例如,美国国会开会时,每位议员发言都有一定时间限制,但若谁没用完分配给他的时间,经议长同意后,可以让给别人使用。有一次开会时,一位议员 Mr. Dyer 对议长说,I yield four minutes to the gentleman from Illinois (Mr. Fowler)。接着,Mr. Fowler 在发言时首先声明,I yield to nobody but God and my constituency,结果引起哄堂大笑和掌声!


有时为了纠正错别字或补充内容,我会修改自己先前的发言,但在此修改时间[2024-03-03 03:47 GMT]之后,我就未作任何进一步修改。


[修改时间: 2024-03-05 07:55 GMT]


 
ysun
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“龙的传人” vs. “炎黄子孙” Mar 5

https://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-hans/龍的傳人

《龙的传人》是台湾音乐人侯德健的著名作品,成于1978年12月16日。歌曲原由侯德健自弹自唱,后由李建复翻唱。[1]

背景
1978年12月,美国政府宣布与中华民国政府断交,转与中国大陆的中华人民共和国政府建交。得知消息的侯德健当夜奋笔创出词曲,十天后,《联合报》刊出歌词全文。[2]1980年经台湾名歌手李建复翻唱,而台湾报纸在官方授意下一再宣传,并搭著校园民歌风潮,令此歌曲变得家传户晓。随后经过英属香港歌手张明敏及关正杰的分别演绎,更传遍中国大陆。而“龙的传人”也成为中华民族的别称。

原著发表时为台湾戒严状态,歌曲需送行政院新闻局审查。当时正逢中华民国与美国断交,行政院新闻局为避免刺激美国政府,将原歌词中“四面楚歌是奴才的剑”改成“四面楚歌是姑息的剑”。


以前,国内外华人普遍都称自己为“炎黄子孙”或“华夏儿女”。“龙的传人”这种说法,尽管以前也有人提过,但不怎么流行。真正开始爆红,还是因为《龙的传人》这首歌。这首歌在中国大陆被捧为“爱国歌曲”,甚至被捧为“红歌”。有外媒评论那是极大讽刺!

实际上,第一个在北京春晚演唱这首歌的不是王力宏,也不是侯德健,而是美国加州喜瑞都市华裔市长黄锦波。

1985年春晚]歌曲:《龙的传人》 黄锦波
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJwof-fcqmw

侯德健在1988年(龙年)春晚上也唱过一次。歌中“四面楚歌是姑息的剑”,原为“四面楚歌是奴才的剑”,但因通不过当时台湾当局的审查,被台湾当局改成“姑息的剑”。后来,侯德健又曾改回“四面楚歌是奴才的剑”。那么,所谓“奴才”究竟是指谁呢?起先有人以为“奴才”只是指台湾当局,其实不完全是。

侯德健写了一本自传《祸头子正传》。尽管中国大陆现在不准其公开发行,但《人民日报》图书馆收藏了此书,并特别指出,“这是台湾歌星侯德健的自传”。

http://library.people.cn/mobile/opac/book/89333

侯德健在《祸头子正传》里说:

原作姑息是养奸的意思,可惜文意欠明确,而如今再改作“奴才”实际上是点明了中国人的悲哀所在,实在不是野心家们千方百计地想当皇帝,而是奴才太多,奴性文化、习惯太深,骨子里需要个皇帝。

祸头子一再强调,阻碍中国民主的人,并不是任何个人,却是我们自己的奴性。因此,我对能彻底改换我们的奴性文化、习惯与意识的前途不甚乐观,这远远要比打倒几个人要难得多,因此,我对中国人的和平事业非常地悲观,也同时很向各位看官们抱歉,我不得不忠于自己的悲观情绪,实在无法高歌“明天会更好”。


“姑息是养奸”这话,他也是有所指的,此处不便明说。有兴趣者不妨自己翻墙去搜索。2011年5月1日,侯德健在北京“鸟巢”再次演唱《龙的传人》。但直至他登台演唱前的最后一刻,才得到中央有关部门批准。盲目吹捧这首歌的人,实际上等于是“被人卖了,还帮着人家数钱!”

[修改时间: 2024-03-05 07:13 GMT]


 
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“龙”的英文应该翻译成 Loong - 转发 (A Chinese Teacher Suggests that "Dragon" should be written as "Loong")






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