Has the MTPE pricing model been unjust/incorrect all along? Thread poster: Thomas Loob
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Thomas Loob 
Sweden
Local time: 06:53
Member
English to Swedish
+ ...
Hello fellow colleagues!
I have always felt that I don't get enough for the effort of Machine Translation Post-Editing (MTPE).
Suddenly I realised that the price of the fuzzy matches is based on an incorrect price model.
I can't believe that I am the only one that has observed this, lots of brilliant minds have been creating the algorithms and crunching enormous amounts of data to get an estimated price for MTPE. (I did a search, but difficult to phrase good keywords.)... See more Hello fellow colleagues!
I have always felt that I don't get enough for the effort of Machine Translation Post-Editing (MTPE).
Suddenly I realised that the price of the fuzzy matches is based on an incorrect price model.
I can't believe that I am the only one that has observed this, lots of brilliant minds have been creating the algorithms and crunching enormous amounts of data to get an estimated price for MTPE. (I did a search, but difficult to phrase good keywords.)
Below I show two examples to compare the result of two different price models.
Let's say the agreed price for new words with an agency is 1 Money per new word.
The price of 95-99% fuzzy matches is agreed as 20 % of the full price, 0.2 Money.
The agreed price per word for MT light post-editing is 50 % of the full rate for new words, 0.5 Money. The rate for 95-99% fuzzy matches is calculated by the same percentage as for new words, 20 % of 0.5 Money, which equals 0.1 Money.
Job 1, MTPE according to agreement:
1000 new MT words = 500 Money
1000 95-99% fuzzies = 100 Money
Total to invoice = 600 Money
Job 2, MTPE according to agreement, but only for new MT words, fuzzy matches are calculated based on the full rate, 1 Money per new word.
1000 new MT words = 500 Money
1000 95-99% fuzzies = 200 Money
Total to invoice = 700 Money
My point in Job 2 is that MT has NOTHING to do with editing the fuzzy matches, this is exactly the same job as if the job was without any MT.
A 95-99% fuzzy match is usually replacing 1-2 words in a sentence with another 1-2 words.
What justifies that machine translation of untranslated words lowers the price of the fuzzy matches, when MT didn't suggest any for translating the 1-2 words in this job?
I strongly believe that my observation is correct and that the fuzzy matches should be based on the rate for untranslated new words, because the effort is the same as with non-MT jobs. I also believe that I am not the only one who has observed or posted about this.
The difficult part is to make ALL agencies adopt the fair pricing model in Job 2, which is a challenge considering how fragmented the freelance community is.
Looking forward to you comments. Have a nice day!
[Redigerad 2024-11-02 08:38 GMT]
[Redigerad 2024-11-02 08:43 GMT]
[Redigerad 2024-11-02 08:59 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Thayenga
Germany
Local time: 06:53
Member (2009)
English to German
+ ...
The rates for MTPE have never been fair, and the "matches grid" is a plain insult. My advice would be, stay as far away from MTPE jobs as you can.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 06:53
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
From what I can tell, you're talking about the pricing of internal fuzzy matches. You want internal fuzzy matches to be paid the same rate as external fuzzy matches. In other words, you feel that if an internal fuzzy match is based on a machine translation, then it should be paid as if it is an external fuzzy match.
| | | | Zea_Mays
Italy
Local time: 06:53
English to German
+ ...
| Are you saying: High percentage matches are not machine-translated strings? | Nov 2 |
Thomas Loob wrote:
Below I show two examples to compare the result of two different price models.
Let's say the agreed price for new words with an agency is 1 Money per new word.
The price of 95-99% fuzzy matches is agreed as 20 % of the full price, 0.2 Money.
The agreed price per word for MT light post-editing is 50 % of the full rate for new words, 0.5 Money. The rate for 95-99% fuzzy matches is calculated by the same percentage as for new words, 20 % of 0.5 Money, which equals 0.1 Money.
Job 1, MTPE according to agreement:
1000 new MT words = 500 Money
1000 95-99% fuzzies = 100 Money
Total to invoice = 600 Money
Job 2, MTPE according to agreement, but only for new MT words, fuzzy matches are calculated based on the full rate, 1 Money per new word.
1000 new MT words = 500 Money
1000 95-99% fuzzies = 200 Money
Total to invoice = 700 Money
My point in Job 2 is that MT has NOTHING to do with editing the fuzzy matches, this is exactly the same job as if the job was without any MT.
A 95-99% fuzzy match is usually replacing 1-2 words in a sentence with another 1-2 words.
What justifies that machine translation of untranslated words lowers the price of the fuzzy matches, when MT didn't suggest any for translating the 1-2 words in this job?
I think you are basically right when I understand what you mean.
Fuzzy TM (Translation Memory) hits are not MT output, but already translated strings in the database that have a match with a new source string.
So they should be treated like in a "classic" CAT translation job, applying the percentage for new words.
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Thomas Loob
Sweden
Local time: 06:53
Member
English to Swedish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Internal and external fuzzies? | Nov 2 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
In other words, you feel that if an internal fuzzy match is based on a machine translation, then it should be paid as if it is an external fuzzy match.
Please explain what you mean by internal and external fuzzies.
I have seen in some cases that MT suggests new words in low fuzzies, but when the rate is higher MT doesn't touch them and are therefore not subject to the lower MT rate.
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I couldn't agree more, but most agencies (in my experience) do apply Fuzzy Match reductions (75-99 Match) for MTPE based on standard price for normal human translation. Most agencies only apply MTPE price reductions for No Matches up tot 74% Match.
There are exceptions though. Lengoo was one. They had an insane MPTE price grid, which I refused after one job (they paid 0,009 EUR for repetitions, why not just 0,0? Makes it easier to calculate). But apparently their scheme didn't work ... See more I couldn't agree more, but most agencies (in my experience) do apply Fuzzy Match reductions (75-99 Match) for MTPE based on standard price for normal human translation. Most agencies only apply MTPE price reductions for No Matches up tot 74% Match.
There are exceptions though. Lengoo was one. They had an insane MPTE price grid, which I refused after one job (they paid 0,009 EUR for repetitions, why not just 0,0? Makes it easier to calculate). But apparently their scheme didn't work out for themselves either as it left them bankrupt.
Kind regards
Joop ▲ Collapse
| | | | jyuan_us
United States
Local time: 00:53
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| Two types of fuzzies | Nov 3 |
1. Before the client runs a file through an MT engine, they usually run it through their TM, which will have fuzzy matches populated in the target language column. When they run the file through an MT engine, these fuzzy matches will not be MT-translated. For these fuzzy matches, your job is not MTPE. Instead, you are just editing the fuzzy matches from the client's TM.
2. While you are MTPE-ing an article, you commit your edited segments to your TM, and "internal" (In Samuel's ter... See more 1. Before the client runs a file through an MT engine, they usually run it through their TM, which will have fuzzy matches populated in the target language column. When they run the file through an MT engine, these fuzzy matches will not be MT-translated. For these fuzzy matches, your job is not MTPE. Instead, you are just editing the fuzzy matches from the client's TM.
2. While you are MTPE-ing an article, you commit your edited segments to your TM, and "internal" (In Samuel's term) fuzzy matches will come up along the way. You will edit these fuzzy match segments other than the original MT output.
I think some clients tend to think editing fuzzy matches should take less time than editing MT's output. That is why they are bothered to bring the concept of "fuzzy match" to an MTPE job in either of the cases mentioned above.
[Edited at 2024-11-03 04:54 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Lieven Malaise
Belgium
Local time: 06:53
Member (2020)
French to Dutch
+ ...
My MTPE rate corresponds to my hourly rate and that's all that matters.
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Barbro Andersson
United States
Local time: 21:53
Member (2019)
English to Swedish
+ ...
| MTPE - unjustly priced | Nov 4 |
Hi.
I just want to add to this also that there are so many different MTPEs, you can have a file that is not at all hard and then there could be a project where you have to handle each and every sentence as there is something incorrect with it and becomes a retranslation - for the same price as a better MTPE-file. How does one wage that?
Also, on this fuzzies how they count is not really adequate for proofreaders. You get a text and the fuzzies are calculated into the ... See more Hi.
I just want to add to this also that there are so many different MTPEs, you can have a file that is not at all hard and then there could be a project where you have to handle each and every sentence as there is something incorrect with it and becomes a retranslation - for the same price as a better MTPE-file. How does one wage that?
Also, on this fuzzies how they count is not really adequate for proofreaders. You get a text and the fuzzies are calculated into the price. But you have to read the full text, whether it is a fuzzy or not, as you don't necessarily can see where the fuzzies are in a text for proofreading. So I agree with the person starting the forum that there are injustices here for sure. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Johan Beyens
Belgium
Local time: 06:53
Member (Oct 2024)
English to Dutch
+ ...
For proofreading, TM/MT matches should be irrelevant, as errors may have been introduced during formatting or DTP and you are only looking at the target text anyway. The agency I used to work for employed an hourly rate for proofreading, and I would expect most agencies to do the same. The assumed volume was about 2500 w/hour, I believe.
| | | | Lieven Malaise
Belgium
Local time: 06:53
Member (2020)
French to Dutch
+ ...
Barbro Andersson wrote:
So I agree with the person starting the forum that there are injustices here for sure.
Indeed there are, but if your MTPE rate is 60%-70% of your conventional translation rate those injustices are covered. At least in my experience. I estimate that at least 90% of my MTPE work reflects my hourly rate or even exceeds it. Sometimes you lose a little bit, but that was an already existing "problem" when there were only conventional translation assignments. It's the result of offering one single rate for virtually every specialization.
| | | | Lieven Malaise
Belgium
Local time: 06:53
Member (2020)
French to Dutch
+ ...
[Deleted because I should learn to read properly.]
[Bijgewerkt op 2024-11-04 11:14 GMT]
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Lieven Malaise
Belgium
Local time: 06:53
Member (2020)
French to Dutch
+ ...
Samuel Murray wrote:
From what I can tell, you're talking about the pricing of internal fuzzy matches. You want internal fuzzy matches to be paid the same rate as external fuzzy matches. In other words, you feel that if an internal fuzzy match is based on a machine translation, then it should be paid as if it is an external fuzzy match.
That's not what he says. He's talking about general fuzzies. There are agencies that apply the MTPE rate to fuzzies, but that's incorrect because fuzzies aren't created by machine translation engines, but by CAT tools. It would be correct to apply the MTPE rate to "new" words, but if those new words result into fuzzies further in the document, those fuzzies should be paid based on the conventional translation rate because editing them takes you as long as editing fuzzies for a conventional translation. Machine translation is of no use here, unless the machine translation is better than the rendered fuzzies (but then you are just post-editing and the fuzzy reduction shouldn't apply).
It's a bit of a sneaky move of agencies (I can't imagine it's not deliberate). Personally I accept it, because my rate is high enough to still reflect or even exceed my hourly rate. But it's basically wrong.
[Bijgewerkt op 2024-11-04 11:45 GMT]
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