| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | How to make the KudoZ system fairer and more professional? Thread poster: Paul Cohen
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Anne-Marie Grant (X) 
Local time: 19:08
French to English
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| The irony of Kudoz | Dec 20, 2009 |
is that many contributors amass hundreds of points when they first join because they are keen to make their mark and, perhaps, to find their feet as translators by answering as many questions as they possibly can, with varying degrees of success. As they progress in their translation career they become much more discerning about what they should and should not answer. There then comes a point when they are too busy with actual work to give Kudoz a lot of attention, so they slip down in the direc... See more is that many contributors amass hundreds of points when they first join because they are keen to make their mark and, perhaps, to find their feet as translators by answering as many questions as they possibly can, with varying degrees of success. As they progress in their translation career they become much more discerning about what they should and should not answer. There then comes a point when they are too busy with actual work to give Kudoz a lot of attention, so they slip down in the directory at precisely the time when they would really be worth employing!
[Edited at 2009-12-20 17:54 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 14:08
Spanish to English
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| Follow-up to Anne-Marie's post | Dec 21, 2009 |
I think that what Anne-Marie describes does often happen. Speaking personally, there are two things about Kudoz that make it likely that I will be devoting less time to answering posted questions during the coming year:
1.
Many of the more "interesting" questions are posted by people that seem to be using the forum to tackle jobs that they probably should not have taken on. Worse yet, some of these same people do not appreciate the help that is offered--as shown by their not a... See more I think that what Anne-Marie describes does often happen. Speaking personally, there are two things about Kudoz that make it likely that I will be devoting less time to answering posted questions during the coming year:
1.
Many of the more "interesting" questions are posted by people that seem to be using the forum to tackle jobs that they probably should not have taken on. Worse yet, some of these same people do not appreciate the help that is offered--as shown by their not awarding points to the best suggestions.
2.
There is something unedifying about the spectacle of professional translators rushing to answer posted questions that could have been found by the Asker in any dictionary. More enabling. Not worth bumping up a slot or two in the rankings if the price of doing so is offering this kind of enabling help.
Once again, I imagine I am not the only person who has these views.... ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Hello everyone! | Jan 11, 2010 |
I would like to share my observation with you.
On the beginning of 2009 a friend told me about Proz.
Because those days I had much more free time than now, I precisely watched whole site, especially KudoZ.
I have noticed interesting matter – some of member voting on Kudoz are not chasing for brownies but for favors!
Those groups of organized "KudoZ crime" ... See more I would like to share my observation with you.
On the beginning of 2009 a friend told me about Proz.
Because those days I had much more free time than now, I precisely watched whole site, especially KudoZ.
I have noticed interesting matter – some of member voting on Kudoz are not chasing for brownies but for favors!
Those groups of organized "KudoZ crime" acts like this.
If one of them gives a KudoZ answer, everyone else will give him "fast +1", even if this answer is wrong, has bad context or is simply rewritten from dictionary as a string of meanings (meaning 1 / meaning 2 / meaning 3 / meaning 4).
In most cases, the amount of positive votes is crucial and decides about choosing an answer.
Isn't it weird, if one of Proz members gives a positive vote to almost 100% of answers proposed by another member?
KudoZ system should include tool, which will restrict or even reveal such practices.
I also have an idea, which can be judged as perverse
It is generally accepted, that every year there are new gold medalists, most beautiful women, most talented actors, etc.
And here is the idea: KudoZ point should be erased after one year.
If they aren’t, I do not see an equal competition here.
What do you think about this?
Best regards
Slawomir Nieciecki ▲ Collapse
| | | | Brian Young
United States
Local time: 11:08
Danish to English
| erasing the kudoz point accumulation | Jan 11, 2010 |
Good idea! I think it should be erased on a weekly basis. It is evident that many of these points have been accumulated by people who spend a lot of time just looking up words in a dictionary, which is what the "asker" should have done in the first place. Some people are so far ahead in the "kudoz" race that nobody will ever be able to "catch up", and the whole idea of being able to "catch up" turns this into something it shouldn't be.
I still say- drop this point BS, and let people just ... See more Good idea! I think it should be erased on a weekly basis. It is evident that many of these points have been accumulated by people who spend a lot of time just looking up words in a dictionary, which is what the "asker" should have done in the first place. Some people are so far ahead in the "kudoz" race that nobody will ever be able to "catch up", and the whole idea of being able to "catch up" turns this into something it shouldn't be.
I still say- drop this point BS, and let people just help each other, yes, for "free". ▲ Collapse
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| Woodstock says it all | Jan 11, 2010 |
Woodstock wrote:
Hi, Paul,
While your suggestion is very interesting, I'm not sure how much it would change the situation. The same complaints have been aired regularly since I've been a member, and it will probably be the same 5 years from now. At some point you shrug your shoulders and either stop using or contributing to KudoZ or simply stop caring about it.
In my main language pair I feel that poor or just wrong KudoZ answers are pretty well regulated by "neutral/disagree" comments. Not only that, the serious translators get to know who these twitchy-fingered answerers are, and they won't be taken seriously for long. I rarely used to give "neutral/disagree" comments, and I still don't for questions I have also given answers to (I leave it to others), but I've lost patience with non-native speakers or those claiming to be native speakers giving crappy answers in a language they so obviously do not have a command of. Now I have absolutely no qualms about calling them out for suggesting answers that no native speaker would ever use. You are right, many seem to have no work to do, but we probably know the reason ... Or those people are not active translators who depend on translating for a living, but doing it for fun - at our expense, in a way.
What I find even more annoying are the askers who are too lazy to do their own research, especially for fairly simple, straightforward terms, yet the same people (those who are glued to their screens, as you mention) give them answers over and over again, even though they MUST know by a certain point that they are being used and even abused. All for the mighty points? I don't understand it, but have stopped wasting energy thinking about it. I just don't bother clicking on the term when I see who the Asker is: usually someone who has asked a zillion questions, many not closed, and no answers... ever. It just surprises me that they still get any translation jobs ... if they are translators at all. Some are not and just like reading English novels/stories while letting us do their research for them.
So as much as I would welcome changes that could improve the quality of KudoZ, I've pretty much worked out my own way of dealing with the flaws and just given up on anything changing anytime soon. This "laissez-faire" way of thinking has definitely helped my blood pressure. 
Edit for addition [Edited at 2009-12-18 11:32 GMT]
I've been a member for just two weeks and I only answered my first question today, and already my blood is boiling at an incorrect answer by a serial answerer having been chosen over my correct one by a non-native non-specialist serial asker... So I will try to follow the advice above...
| | | | Ildiko Santana
United States
Local time: 11:08
Member (2002)
Hungarian to English
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MODERATOR | eliminate timers | Jan 17, 2010 |
Dear Fellow ProZians,
One of the negative sides of our cherished KudoZ system in my opinion is that the speed at which the proposed answers come in is a deciding factor - numerous incomplete and wrong answers are being selected and awarded points based on how soon they appear. I believe this to be very unfair to those who actually spend significant time and effort on wording and typing up a complete answer, with coherent explanations, references, sources, links, etc. Unfortunately, ... See more Dear Fellow ProZians,
One of the negative sides of our cherished KudoZ system in my opinion is that the speed at which the proposed answers come in is a deciding factor - numerous incomplete and wrong answers are being selected and awarded points based on how soon they appear. I believe this to be very unfair to those who actually spend significant time and effort on wording and typing up a complete answer, with coherent explanations, references, sources, links, etc. Unfortunately, it is very common (at least in my language pairs Hu/En, En/Hu) that answerers submit a word or two in the "answer" field just minutes (sometimes seconds!) after a question is posted, typing "--" in the "explanation" field. Rarely do they return to add at least one coherent sentence (but they typically don't bother). Many times the selection is automatic and the "best" answer is the fastest. Way too often these answers are incorrect. I don't believe this unfair and unprofessional method should be encouraged any longer by ProZ/KudoZ.
Thank you for reading this far, and please share your thoughts.
Ildiko Weinberger
CA ▲ Collapse
| | | | hazmatgerman (X)
Local time: 20:08
English to German
| Objective of | Jan 18, 2010 |
this site being commercial, any long-term view of enticement by quality appears to have scant chance of implementation. As can be seen from the fate of similar proposals in the past. I'd save my breath.
Best
| | | | | The positive contribution of timers | Jan 18, 2010 |
ildiko wrote:
eliminate timers
Dear Fellow ProZians,
One of the negative sides of our cherished KudoZ system in my opinion is that the speed at which the proposed answers come in is a deciding factor - numerous incomplete and wrong answers are being selected and awarded points based on how soon they appear. I believe this to be very unfair to those who actually spend significant time and effort on wording and typing up a complete answer, with coherent explanations, references, sources, links, etc. Unfortunately, it is very common (at least in my language pairs Hu/En, En/Hu) that answerers submit a word or two in the "answer" field just minutes (sometimes seconds!) after a question is posted, typing "--" in the "explanation" field. Rarely do they return to add at least one coherent sentence (but they typically don't bother). Many times the selection is automatic and the "best" answer is the fastest. Way too often these answers are incorrect. I don't believe this unfair and unprofessional method should be encouraged any longer by ProZ/KudoZ.
Hi Ildiko,
Yours is a valuable suggestion but I would be concerned with losing the positive contribution of timers.
Imagine you post a well researched answer and then some other user copies your answer, eventually with a couple of small differences. If you didn't show timers then in this case it would be rather hard to know who was the original contributor.
Regards,
Enrique
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| Kudoz point accumulation | Jan 18, 2010 |
Brian Young wrote:
erasing the kudoz point accumulation
Good idea! I think it should be erased on a weekly basis. It is evident that many of these points have been accumulated by people who spend a lot of time just looking up words in a dictionary, which is what the "asker" should have done in the first place. Some people are so far ahead in the "kudoz" race that nobody will ever be able to "catch up", and the whole idea of being able to "catch up" turns this into something it shouldn't be.
I still say- drop this point BS, and let people just help each other, yes, for "free".
Hi Brian,
Right now, when outsourcers performs directory searches, the results can be ranked considering "all time" KudoZ or only the points earned during the last 12 months.
Regards,
Enrique
| | | | Ildiko Santana
United States
Local time: 11:08
Member (2002)
Hungarian to English
+ ...
MODERATOR | copying previous answers | Jan 21, 2010 |
Enrique wrote:
Imagine you post a well researched answer and then some other user copies your answer, eventually with a couple of small differences. If you didn't show timers then in this case it would be rather hard to know who was the original contributor.
Hi Enrique,
Thanks for giving my suggestion some thought. I would have never imagined such a sophisticated way of cheating just to earn a few virtual points! (Lucky for me. Well, any system that can be abused will be abused... Sad but true.
On the subject of timers I forgot to mention that another downside of having the time-stamps on answers is that when askers abandon their questions or leave grading to the community (as is often the case) and the agree-disagree count is the same (or zero) then the fastest answer is selected automatically, regardless of its actual value to the asker or to the community.
This brings up another suggestion that I will post in a separate box.
Regards,
Ildiko
| | | | | The last answer is selected among those sharing the top net agrees | Jan 21, 2010 |
ildiko wrote:
On the subject of timers I forgot to mention that another downside of having the time-stamps on answers is that when askers abandon their questions or leave grading to the community (as is often the case) and the agree-disagree count is the same (or zero) then the fastest answer is selected automatically, regardless of its actual value to the asker or to the community.
Hi Ildiko,
In fact questions are closed automatically only when at least an answer has a net count agrees minus disagrees of at least two.
The answer with the highest number of net agrees is selected. In case of two or more answers with the same net agrees, the last one entered is selected.
The idea is that if two answers gather the same number of net agrees, the one that did so in a shorter period of time may be better. In other words, all those agreed to the second answer have seen the first one and still voted for the second, therefore preferring the second answer, while those that voted for the first one may not have seen the second answer when voted.
http://www.proz.com/faq/2731#2731
Regards,
Enrique
| | | | Ildiko Santana
United States
Local time: 11:08
Member (2002)
Hungarian to English
+ ...
MODERATOR | implement criteria for "Explanation" field | Jan 21, 2010 |
Like I said before, I find it unfair and unprofessional when an answer is not backed up by a meaningful explanation, sufficient research, convincing reasons and references. All too often folks type "--" or "I think" or, even worse, "just guessing" in the "Explanation" field, clearly indicating that they a) don't have the knowledge behind their answer or b) are unwilling to devote more than a few seconds to helping the asker. This could be avoided (or at least made less easy) if the system requir... See more Like I said before, I find it unfair and unprofessional when an answer is not backed up by a meaningful explanation, sufficient research, convincing reasons and references. All too often folks type "--" or "I think" or, even worse, "just guessing" in the "Explanation" field, clearly indicating that they a) don't have the knowledge behind their answer or b) are unwilling to devote more than a few seconds to helping the asker. This could be avoided (or at least made less easy) if the system required alphabetical characters (no symbols) here and if there was a minimum character limit set, say, at 100 characters.
My 2 cents.
Ildiko
P.S. I would put in place similar minimum requirements when creating profiles. There are registered users on ProZ.com whose profile shows absolutely NO information except maybe their geographical location (no name, no language pair, no years of experience, nothing!) These anonymous users should not be allowed to participate in KudoZ activities, IMHO. ▲ Collapse
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