| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7] > | Proposal related to barring outsourcers from offering rate at outset of job discussions Thread poster: Henry Dotterer
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| one more thing then I'll shut up | Mar 26, 2010 |
The petition states:
"To cite one specific example: the fact that ProZ.com allows job posters to set prices and conditions is, in itself, a form of "market distortion" and reveals one of the main reasons why we believe the ProZ.com job posting system is fundamentally flawed. When offering translation services, the freelance translator acts as a service provider, not as a client. To this respect, as in any freelance profession, we believe the freelancer and not the client should esta... See more The petition states:
"To cite one specific example: the fact that ProZ.com allows job posters to set prices and conditions is, in itself, a form of "market distortion" and reveals one of the main reasons why we believe the ProZ.com job posting system is fundamentally flawed. When offering translation services, the freelance translator acts as a service provider, not as a client. To this respect, as in any freelance profession, we believe the freelancer and not the client should establish working conditions, prices, etc."
This is the main point of the petition, signed by 800+ translators around the world.
I wasn't in on the drafting of the proposal, Wendell was, so I'll leave it to him to respond to you, Henry. But if you go back to the first page of this thread, you'll find his post where he said (referring to the request that proz remove the ability of outsourcers to set the rate for the job):
"This was the very first proposal we adopted and it "passed" unanimously in a matter of hours. It was the fulcrum of the petition and I daresay it's also the one issue on which almost everyone agreed who signed the petition -- even if they didn't necessarily agree with all of the other proposals that came out of it."
As I understand it, this point passed unanimously and the disagreement was over the other, less important points. I have also heard others say that the only reason they didn't also sign as co-sponsor was because they didn't want the main message (this very point) being "diluted". That's just one example though, and I repeat I was NOT in on the discussions that led to the drafting of the proposal, so I'll step back and let Wendell or someone who was reply. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Why should translators disagree? | Mar 26, 2010 |
Henry, sorry, I don't really get why translators would disregard an ad with no fixed rate.
Can you provide some examples? Some testimonials?
Thanks a lot,
Paola
| | | | | I already did, Paola | Mar 26, 2010 |
Paola Dentifrigi wrote:
Henry, sorry, I don't really get why translators would disregard an ad with no fixed rate.
Can you provide some examples? Some testimonials?
I've done that, in my first posting. Beyond that, I would rather let people speak for themselves.
As Sarah points out, Wendell did say, "This was the very first proposal we adopted and it 'passed' unanimously in a matter of hours." Fair enough, I am going to collect some data from outside this group and see if what I find agrees with that.
| | | | | Going back a step... | Mar 26, 2010 |
At the risk of sounding repetitive, I think it will facilitate matters to be clear on what it is we are trying to achieve here.
The "propozal" laid out specific actions, but it did not state goals. Reading the posts here, it occurs to me that there are at least four goals held by at least some of those who have made the proposals. They are:
* Eliminating (or reducing) the potential for the ProZ.com job posting platform to be used by outsourcers to "propagandize" on rate... See more At the risk of sounding repetitive, I think it will facilitate matters to be clear on what it is we are trying to achieve here.
The "propozal" laid out specific actions, but it did not state goals. Reading the posts here, it occurs to me that there are at least four goals held by at least some of those who have made the proposals. They are:
* Eliminating (or reducing) the potential for the ProZ.com job posting platform to be used by outsourcers to "propagandize" on rates
* Tapping the potential of the ProZ.com job posting system to contribute to the education of inexperienced translation clients
* Tapping the potential of the ProZ.com job posting system to contribute to the education of inexperienced translators
* Interfering with the ability of outsourcers to use the ProZ.com job posting system to meet translators who charge low rates.
* Improving the image of the ProZ.com site, countering the impression that it condones unprofessional practices.
* Reaffirming the right of translators to set their own rates
Does anyone have any others to add? ▲ Collapse
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Paul O'Brien 
Argentina
Local time: 08:35
Member (2007)
Italian to English
+ ...
Maureen Young wrote:
Since we've come this far....I also would like to see you willing to try an experimental period in which no outsourcers can offer rates. (Easier to implement that the opt out option!  )
Maureen
Yes, exactly. Why not try our proposal for a trial period? I really can't understand Henry's hard line on this. Serious outsourcers have nothing either to hide or lose, and blackguards, insulters and opportunists can, well, go and do their own translations (the quality would be pretty much the same anyway, right?) .
[Edited at 2010-03-26 18:54 GMT]
| | | | Maureen Young
Italy
Local time: 12:35
Member (2009)
Italian to English
| A goal to add, plus that everyone was in agreement on the main point | Mar 26, 2010 |
Henry D wrote:
At the risk of sounding repetitive, I think it will facilitate matters to be clear on what it is we are trying to achieve here.
The "propozal" only laid out actions, it did not state goals. Reading the posts here, it occurs to me that there are at least four goals held by at least some of those who have made the proposals. They are:
* Eliminating (or reducing) the potential for the ProZ.com job posting platform to be used by outsourcers to "propagandize" on rates
* Tapping the potential of the ProZ.com job posting system to contribute to the education of inexperienced translation clients
* Tapping the potential of the ProZ.com job posting system to contribute to the education of inexperienced translators
* Interfering with the ability of outsourcers to use the ProZ.com job posting system to meet translators who charge low rates.
Does anyone have any others to add?
Good list. And I can say that they were definitely shared by all who made the proposals and (I imagine) all who signed them.
Since I'm at it, I would like to make it very clear that everyone involved in the process of making the proposals and in the discussion on the larger list was very much in agreement on the main point of eliminating mention of rates by outsourcers. In the past I preferred knowing rates because this way I could easily filter out offers I couldn't be interested in (and if I remember correctly this filtering ability was also an effort on your part to fix the system), but I have since been convinced that on a global level this system is bad for the community, bad for professionalism and thus bad for me. I think this is the point: serious translators are realizing that this "fix" (being able to filter out indecent offers) may actually be doing more damage by facilitating the mechanism while keeping us from worrying about it. Yet we probably need to start worrying; as certain trends get more powerful they will inevitably affect us all. We don't want ProZ to facilitate them.
Back to your list, for the first point, I'd eliminate the words "or reducing". Not that I think it will be possible to totally eliminate it, since translators can be contacted privately, but that should be the goal.
I would add something like:
* improve the image of the ProZ site, countering the negative impression that it condones unprofessional practices (written in a hurry, I really need to get dinner on the table!)
Maureen
| | | | Paul O'Brien
Argentina
Local time: 08:35
Member (2007)
Italian to English
+ ...
| Missing the point again? | Mar 26, 2010 |
Henry D wrote:
At the risk of sounding repetitive, I think it will facilitate matters to be clear on what it is we are trying to achieve here.
The "propozal" only laid out actions, it did not state goals. Reading the posts here, it occurs to me that there are at least four goals held by at least some of those who have made the proposals. They are:
* Eliminating (or reducing) the potential for the ProZ.com job posting platform to be used by outsourcers to "propagandize" on rates
* Tapping the potential of the ProZ.com job posting system to contribute to the education of inexperienced translation clients
* Tapping the potential of the ProZ.com job posting system to contribute to the education of inexperienced translators
* Interfering with the ability of outsourcers to use the ProZ.com job posting system to meet translators who charge low rates.
Does anyone have any others to add?
Sorry, Henry, perhaps we've got our wires crossed, but your list doesn't seem to contain the point that we've been discussing here for the past two days: "Restoring the right of professional translators to establish their own rates and not have these imposed on them by outsourcers".
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Pauley wrote:
Maureen Young wrote:
Since we've come this far....I also would like to see you willing to try an experimental period in which no outsourcers can offer rates. (Easier to implement that the opt out option! )
Maureen
Yes, exactly. Why not try our proposal for a trial period? I really can't understand Henry's hard line on this. Serious outsourcers have nothing either to hide or lose, and blackguards, insulters and opportunists can, well, go and do their own translations (the quality would be pretty much the same anyway, right?) .
The short answer is that ProZ.com has a good number of members, staff members and moderators, many communicating in languages other than English, and communication and planning are essential and take time. (Maybe think of what it would be like to just "give it a try" to have everyone suddenly start driving on the other side of the road (even if that is a bit of an exaggeration.))
In other words, take my word for it, if you would be so trusting, changes like this just can't be made instantly. At least not by us!
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| OK, Pauley. But could you rephrase that? | Mar 26, 2010 |
Pauley wrote:
Sorry, Henry, perhaps we've got our wires crossed, but your list doesn't seem to contain the point that we've been discussing here for the past two days: "Restoring the right of professional translators to establish their own rates and not have these imposed on them by outsourcers".
OK, I'll add something along those lines. Since nothing about the system currently revokes that right, however, could you suggest an alternative wording?
| | | | Frauke Joris (X)
Italy
Local time: 12:35
Italian to Dutch
+ ...
| goals for myself | Mar 26, 2010 |
I have 2 goals:
1. I would like to add ProZ to my network of potentional points from where potential customers COME TO ME. I do not want to search for them on forums, I want them to search for me. I am willing to pay a good sum, if ProZ starts to be a real origin of messages in my email from customers wich I recognise in ONE instant are the right ones. I do not need customers who are coming and going. I want them staying for YEARS with me, possibly and I am able to recognise them in... See more I have 2 goals:
1. I would like to add ProZ to my network of potentional points from where potential customers COME TO ME. I do not want to search for them on forums, I want them to search for me. I am willing to pay a good sum, if ProZ starts to be a real origin of messages in my email from customers wich I recognise in ONE instant are the right ones. I do not need customers who are coming and going. I want them staying for YEARS with me, possibly and I am able to recognise them in a few instants and messages. But I am aware that this goal is not the matter in this forum.
2. I would like ProZ stopping to be the place where I loose a good deal of my potential customers before they even try search for me. And this matters in this forum.
Today I can demonstrate how the actual system makes me loosing customers. One of my agencies has posted a job it>nl on ProZ: my job. She ends today to send me that kind of texts, after years. Because I'm asking her 20 euro and she is unable as many translators are, to have a normal business with her customers, so she from now on has decided she wants a translator for 12/14 or even 16/18 euro for the same text she always payed 20 for. I'm loosing about 100 euro's per month, not much. But "my" business in this moment is made of many customers of 100 euro's per month.
Why did she went to ProZ? Because she knows that that is the place where she will find that translator of 12 euro in less then 10 minutes. With 18 euro she is beneath the price a freelancer needs to survive, I can assure you that. She knows what she is loosing, not working anymore with me. But what she only will know in a few weeks, is that I stop today to be the one who brings her in one hour a new translator, a good one, when her translators leave her alone with her text they both promised to their customer to be delivered THAT day. That' exactly what happened the last week: 3 translators of 0,045 euro per word, have said her in the morning "Very sorry, but I can't send you that translation today". I will not be there anymore for her.
How can ProZ stop one of the places where I loose my customers?
In this very moment, the only way I see is that both that kind of translators and that kind of customers LOOSE the visibility they GAINED in all these years, BOTH, on ProZ.
It is the VISIBILITY of BOTH and for BOTH which holds on this circle and is making that circle bigger and bigger.
When we are insisting here on taking away rates or prices, we do that, in order to take away that _visibility_ for _BOTH_. It is this "visibility" which makes the lifes of both kinds of "bad" behaviour to easy. That completely idiot posting with a rate less then 0,01 dollar per word, had in less than 20 answering translators, at least 2 or 3 for each pair of languages. Everybody in the world was able to SEE them, both.
Both that visible posts with their visible answers are telling day by day to thousands of other translators and potential customers that what they SEE on ProZ is the RIGHT way to handle.
When I'm talking to young translators, I always say: go and read ProZ and place your profile there. But do NOT bid on job offers, do not trust the customers there, untill you have learned how customers should behave and you must behave. After a while, they are coming back: Why did you tell me that I should ask not less then 0,07 cent (for instance) and on ProZ I see so many rates so much lesser????? Some do not come back and start to do what I said not to do.
Do you remember how internet for translators and needers worked 12 years ago? There was a mailing list, one of more lists, but I remember and used only one. Customers posted their in 2 lines what they got to be resolved + their email adress or telephone. That is the list where my carreer started, with one customer in months who needed a translation of a manual. That list ended every day in my mail. I did not have to open forums o other things, I picked out the one interesting me and wrote to him.
Frauke ▲ Collapse
| | | | Paul O'Brien
Argentina
Local time: 08:35
Member (2007)
Italian to English
+ ...
| Please suggest an alternative, Henry | Mar 26, 2010 |
Henry D wrote:
Pauley wrote:
Sorry, Henry, perhaps we've got our wires crossed, but your list doesn't seem to contain the point that we've been discussing here for the past two days: "Restoring the right of professional translators to establish their own rates and not have these imposed on them by outsourcers".
OK, I'll add something along those lines. Since nothing about the system currently revokes that right, however, could you suggest an alternative wording?
It's all in the original proposal, Henry. Why do I need to reword it? Besides, what's wrong with the wording above? I quite like it as it is. However, if you want to suggest an alternative, then by all means I'll read it with interest. The concern, at any rate, is that professional translators are losing their ability to establish their own rates and that Proz is inadvertently facilitating this process and therefore needs to change tack. My point was that your list did not include this central issue, despite the fact that that it is what we have been discussing for the past two days. Yes, nothing in the current system FORMALLY revokes that right, but in SUBSTANCE that is what is happening. You're surely not suggesting that we are imagining all this, are you, Henry?
Perhaps "Restoring" is a bit strong, since it overstresses the extent to which our bargaining power has been lost. Maybe "Reaffirming" or "Underlining" could work better.
[Edited at 2010-03-26 19:57 GMT]
| | | | | Thanks, Pauley | Mar 26, 2010 |
Pauley wrote:
"Reaffirming" or "Underlining" could work better.
Excellent, I'll go with "reaffirming". I was having trouble coming up with the right word.
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Paul O'Brien
Argentina
Local time: 08:35
Member (2007)
Italian to English
+ ...
| Don't follow again | Mar 26, 2010 |
Henry D wrote:
Pauley wrote:
Maureen Young wrote:
Since we've come this far....I also would like to see you willing to try an experimental period in which no outsourcers can offer rates. (Easier to implement that the opt out option! )
Maureen
Yes, exactly. Why not try our proposal for a trial period? I really can't understand Henry's hard line on this. Serious outsourcers have nothing either to hide or lose, and blackguards, insulters and opportunists can, well, go and do their own translations (the quality would be pretty much the same anyway, right?) .
The short answer is that ProZ.com has a good number of members, staff members and moderators, many communicating in languages other than English, and communication and planning are essential and take time. (Maybe think of what it would be like to just "give it a try" to have everyone suddenly start driving on the other side of the road (even if that is a bit of an exaggeration.))
In other words, take my word for it, if you would be so trusting, changes like this just can't be made instantly. At least not by us!
Sorry, Henry, I'm a bit lost as to how implementation on a trial basis of a proposal to remove outsourcer diktats on pricing should take yonks whereas your "opt out" suggestion would, presumably, be more rapid. Can you clarify, please? Thanks, Paul
[Edited at 2010-03-26 20:32 GMT]
| | | | | Thanks, Maureen | Mar 26, 2010 |
Maureen Young wrote:
Since I'm at it, I would like to make it very clear that everyone involved in the process of making the proposals and in the discussion on the larger list was very much in agreement on the main point of eliminating mention of rates by outsourcers.
Thanks, Maureen. Which list was that?
Back to your list, for the first point, I'd eliminate the words "or reducing". Not that I think it will be possible to totally eliminate it, since translators can be contacted privately, but that should be the goal.
Good point.
* improve the image of the ProZ site, countering the negative impression that it condones unprofessional practices (written in a hurry, I really need to get dinner on the table!)
Thanks! Eat!
| | | | | Reponse to Pauley | Mar 26, 2010 |
Pauley wrote:
Sorry, Henry, I'm a bit lost as to how implementation on a trial basis of a proposal to remove outsourcer diktats on pricing should take yonks whereas your "opt out" suggestion would, presumably, be more rapid.
Nope, my point was that neither could be done instantly. You can't turn a barge on a dime.
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