| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Bad business practices Thread poster: Claudia Alvis
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| nothing strange here... | Dec 2, 2008 |
Mikhail Kropotov wrote:
She expected you to charge your client a minimum/hourly fee for this job. She helped you out when you could not do the job yourself, so she should be the one receiving that fee (or HER minimum/hourly fee, at least).
Doesn't that seem rational?
This is very possible. Additionally, if you don't discuss payment terms before asking people to do work for you, what else do you expect?
Always discuss rates, payment terms and method of payment before outsourcing or accepting work.
Frankly, I question your professionalism on the basis of what you said about giving this translator a bad reference because she had the impudence to charge you more than you expected. You say she did a good job yet you're clearly more than happy to punish her for charging you a minimum fee...
[Edited at 2008-12-02 23:47 GMT]
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I must query your assertion about good translators being easy to find. Having been a proofreader for a couple of years, in your same language pair, I've found that they seem to be thin on the ground.
Rage apart, as a person running a business I would not necessarily get rid of a translator for that reason, I'd just bear her attitude in mind in future and not be caught out again.
But I would not break off with a reliable translator on the assumption that there are lots... See more I must query your assertion about good translators being easy to find. Having been a proofreader for a couple of years, in your same language pair, I've found that they seem to be thin on the ground.
Rage apart, as a person running a business I would not necessarily get rid of a translator for that reason, I'd just bear her attitude in mind in future and not be caught out again.
But I would not break off with a reliable translator on the assumption that there are lots of good translators out there. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Claudia Alvis 
Peru
Local time: 06:13
Member
Spanish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | At Konstantin: Don't put words in my mouth and you're contradicting yourself | Dec 3, 2008 |
I never said I was gonna give a bad reference about her. I would never lie about something like that. But to me, $35.00 for 1 minute of work is a big deal, and if I were asked for a reference, that would DEFINITELY come up. But you're also contradicting yourself, you say that you don't see anything strange in that kind of practice, yet somehow you also think that mentioning or even highlighting that fact is a "punishment". This thread shows that some people think that a one-hour minimum fee for ... See more I never said I was gonna give a bad reference about her. I would never lie about something like that. But to me, $35.00 for 1 minute of work is a big deal, and if I were asked for a reference, that would DEFINITELY come up. But you're also contradicting yourself, you say that you don't see anything strange in that kind of practice, yet somehow you also think that mentioning or even highlighting that fact is a "punishment". This thread shows that some people think that a one-hour minimum fee for such a small job is perfectly acceptable, and others disagree.
I perfectly see that I should have done things differently, you live and learn! But the fact that she took much more time to write the invoice and charging one hour for one minute is what really bothers me, I was stupid to expect a reasonable fee from this person. Although I also see that 'reasonable' is a very gray area.
Janet and Kevin, you both absolutely right, I shouldn't have assumed anything. I saw it as a quick job, she might have seen it as the unreasonable rush-job. Cristina's also right, maybe it is a cultural thing. But it's not so much about the money as it is about the service, it's always nice when someone does a nice thing for you even when they don't have to--specially among colleagues.
EDIT: Having responded to two people asking for references about her, and never charged for that, even though each took more than one minute, I just was expecting something more. Maybe I should have send her my invoice for that. But that would have also been petty.
Konstantin Kisin wrote:
Mikhail Kropotov wrote:
She expected you to charge your client a minimum/hourly fee for this job. She helped you out when you could not do the job yourself, so she should be the one receiving that fee (or HER minimum/hourly fee, at least).
Doesn't that seem rational?
This is very possible. Additionally, if you don't discuss payment terms before asking people to do work for you, what else do you expect?
Always discuss rates, payment terms and method of payment before outsourcing work.
Frankly, I question your professionalism on the basis of what you said about giving this translator a bad reference because she had the impudence to charge you more than you expected. You say she did a good job yet you're clearly more than happy to punish her for charging you a minimum fee...
[Edited at 2008-12-03 00:19 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | There was no agreement on price | Dec 3, 2008 |
Charlie Bavington wrote:
A PO is not necessary to create a contractual relationship.
That may be so, but I would be surprised if any law in any country allowed someone to invoice a price that was not agreed beforehand. That's what I mean by non-existent PO. If the law allowed for contractual relationships to exist without agreeing on a price, then I could easily say to a client informally that I charge two cents per word, and then invoice that client for twenty cents per word, and the client would have to pay up.
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| Another point | Dec 3, 2008 |
Lest there be any misunderstanding, I would be a little taken aback to be charged an hour for sticking a couple of words in bold, and agree with the general principle that the odd freebie here and there does no harm.
In your particular case, I would perhaps have bunged her $10 dollars, on the grounds that you acknowledge and accept the general principle that her time is money, but that in this case you know fine well how long the "job" took, and you refuse to be taken for a ride, es... See more Lest there be any misunderstanding, I would be a little taken aback to be charged an hour for sticking a couple of words in bold, and agree with the general principle that the odd freebie here and there does no harm.
In your particular case, I would perhaps have bunged her $10 dollars, on the grounds that you acknowledge and accept the general principle that her time is money, but that in this case you know fine well how long the "job" took, and you refuse to be taken for a ride, especially since there was no initial agreement made. Might have been worth a shot....
Anyway.... we often see threads about raising rates.
The advice is often to raise rates first with a) new clients and b) clients you don't mind losing.
I just wonder whether this could actually be a deliberate ploy. We already know she's got feelers out - she asked you for a reference. Maybe she is testing a new rate structure on you, without much minding whether you like it or not.
If you pay it and continue to pay it, great; if not, equally great....
So, maybe, just maybe, you are on the "receiving end" of the advice that regularly gets dished out on here, but looked at from the other side of the coin, as it were.
Just an idea. ▲ Collapse
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Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
That may be so, but I would be surprised if any law in any country allowed someone to invoice a price that was not agreed beforehand. That's what I mean by non-existent PO. If the law allowed for contractual relationships to exist without agreeing on a price, then I could easily say to a client informally that I charge two cents per word, and then invoice that client for twenty cents per word, and the client would have to pay up.
Indeed.
That is not the quite the same thing. Indeed, I have hinted in the post I was writing while you wrote yours that I broadly agree with that, by saying I'd take a punt on offering $10 and see what gives.
No price appears to have been agreed by both sides in advance as far as we can tell. Although we should not overlook that "agreed" can, in some jurisdictions, be implied by previous conduct. So if the OP had already paid a couple of $35 invoices for small jobs under an hour, then the precedent is set that the expectation in future is that the same arrangement will apply.
Obviously somewhat vague which is why POs are best
FWIW I do have a few clients where we don't bother with POs for each and every job.
And FWIW, even some credit insurers do not insist on POs for every order once an established pattern is in place, and will accept the existence of an obligation on that basis.
Anyway, I have a new theory now
| | | | | Who brings up the subject of price? | Dec 3, 2008 |
Reading all these posts made me wonder if it may be possible that the misunderstanding stems from both parties expecting the other to bring up prices. Actually, reading these posts tells me that the majority prefers for clients to bring up prices, or at least thinks that that is the normal practice. Maybe this is what I disagree on with most contributors of this thread.
In my mind, it is always up to the service provider to state a price, no matter the industry. This is actually wha... See more Reading all these posts made me wonder if it may be possible that the misunderstanding stems from both parties expecting the other to bring up prices. Actually, reading these posts tells me that the majority prefers for clients to bring up prices, or at least thinks that that is the normal practice. Maybe this is what I disagree on with most contributors of this thread.
In my mind, it is always up to the service provider to state a price, no matter the industry. This is actually what the normal practice is in other industries. You don't ask an ISP what their prices are - they tell you before you have the chance to ask, based on the service you are showing interest in. I am thinking maybe the agencies and other types of clients on ProZ who state the rate they are willing pay have succeeded in brainwashing most of us into thinking that it is always the client who mentions rates first, and that, by extension, it is the outsourcer's responsibility to state or ask for a rate.
I also wanted to add that while Claudia's client may or may not have issues with shoelaces, that is not at all what Claudia is having an issue with.
I think that the right thing to do for the translator in this case would have been to make it clear that she would charge her minimum rate and then tell Claudia what that rate was. She did not say anything of the sort. I consider that invoicing Claudia for no matter which amount after that equals a translator accepting to help her client out free, only to change her mind later. Not professional at all, in my opinion.
@ Charlie: I also seldom use formal POs with established clients. But that doesn't mean we don't have agreements by e-mail that legally do constitute a PO. As is your case, these agreements are usually based on our past dealings, that is, my clients can expect me to charge the usual rate, provided that the work is of more or less the same nature and degree of difficulty. When I feel that the usual rate won't cut it, I do tell the client before agreeing to do the job. So, formal POs may not be used every time, but we do have agreements, which comes down to the same thing as having POs.
[Edited at 2008-12-03 01:26 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Todd Field
United States
Local time: 05:13
Member
Portuguese to English
| Question of perspectives | Dec 3, 2008 |
Before becoming a translator, I was the sales manager of a fly fishing tackle company (i.e. manager of male testosterone between geographically dispersed sales reps, dealers, distributors, pro staff, and other partners). So, absurd and frustrating situations resulting from human interaction involving anything less than all five senses were a daily routine.
One thing I learned: for every maddening situation, there is almost always a logical explanation. This can only be discovered th... See more Before becoming a translator, I was the sales manager of a fly fishing tackle company (i.e. manager of male testosterone between geographically dispersed sales reps, dealers, distributors, pro staff, and other partners). So, absurd and frustrating situations resulting from human interaction involving anything less than all five senses were a daily routine.
One thing I learned: for every maddening situation, there is almost always a logical explanation. This can only be discovered through proactive communication. Otherwise, friends become enemies, and everyone parts ways unnecessarily.
Claudia summed it up perfectly: "she may also have been acting under another, completely different and equally valid set of assumptions". Although it may seem farfetched now, your translator’s potentially valid reality can only be discovered by communicating with her.
Best of luck to you, and hope it all works out! ▲ Collapse
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Anne Bohy
France
Local time: 13:13
English to French
| Why do you think you're punishing her? | Dec 3, 2008 |
You have your own ideas about translators, thinking that good translators are easy to find, and probably thinking that they are begging for some work from you, if you consider that you will punish her this way. She may see things somewhat differently.
In my case, I do have rush rates and minimum charges, which I usually do not apply. BUT when the customer has requests that I don't agree with (like sending four successive versions of the same text for translation, each as a rush job of cour... See more You have your own ideas about translators, thinking that good translators are easy to find, and probably thinking that they are begging for some work from you, if you consider that you will punish her this way. She may see things somewhat differently.
In my case, I do have rush rates and minimum charges, which I usually do not apply. BUT when the customer has requests that I don't agree with (like sending four successive versions of the same text for translation, each as a rush job of course) I DO charge these special rates. And I do this on purpose.
In her case, being asked to do this silly job, she may have felt the same. If she has been asked to do that kind of trivial formatting quite often during the translation phase (as you suggest), she is probably not that much interested in continuing to work with you. Instead of saying no, she simply applies the default rule.
If she is a good translator (as you suggest), some other translation agencies may have found her, so why would she beg for your jobs, if she has others without these painful edits?
In my opinion, as she didn't reject your work openly, it's still up to you to decide if you want to work with this translator again or not (especially if you want to keep your customer which was pleased with her work), but I would advise you to look for a student who will be delighted to do these silly editing jobs at a reasonable fee instead of imposing them to your translators and complaining about the cost. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Lianne van de Ven
United States
Local time: 07:13
Member (2008)
English to Dutch
+ ...
| interesting topic | Dec 3, 2008 |
I enjoyed reading (quickly - because time is money...) this topic, and I feel most comfortable with responses that call for understanding of both perspectives and for communication that supports continuing relationships, to listen and come to understand each perspective, and then hopefully be willing to let it go.
My first thought was that the translator may have had some unexpressed annoyances, either with this particular job, or maybe accumulated over several jobs. It seems (to m... See more I enjoyed reading (quickly - because time is money...) this topic, and I feel most comfortable with responses that call for understanding of both perspectives and for communication that supports continuing relationships, to listen and come to understand each perspective, and then hopefully be willing to let it go.
My first thought was that the translator may have had some unexpressed annoyances, either with this particular job, or maybe accumulated over several jobs. It seems (to me only somewhat) blunt to send a $35 bill without addressing: I'd want to charge $ because..., is that all right with you?
But I also do believe that whoever asks a professional to do something, should also ask if there is a charge or additional charge. I think it is assuming to send out a request and expect to get it for free.
(I have one friend who, when asked "is this for free?" always replies: this is for free for YOU!)
Maybe the translator was offended. I agree with some remarks about just putting some text in bold: was this really something the client couldn't do himself? Is this a job for a translator?? Okay, you'll get the bill...
These are just some of my thoughts, expressing my personal issues that would show up in such a situation. This is really a lack of clear communication from both sides about as of yet unknown motives that can only be clarified by talking it over, being honest and being willing to trust. People do make errors because they are human beings...
[Edited at 2008-12-03 03:17 GMT]
[Edited at 2008-12-03 03:17 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Kevin Fulton
United States
Local time: 07:13
German to English
| It's all about proper communication ... | Dec 3, 2008 |
... and mutual understanding. Both parties made certain assumptions that should have been clarified at the outset. Both parties are being reasonable/unreasonable.
If the translator is good and worth working with in the future, try to come to an understanding and kiss and make up.
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Claudia is right. This is unacceptable from someone who is having steady work from her outsourcer.
This translator is so much "dollarized", that I wouldn't work again with her either. A lot of my clients love me due to things like that. I just can't charge them for five minutes of my time!
That's the way we get to know people in life. Take it like a bad experience, and be careful next time.
Un abrazo,
Tadzio.
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| A possibility indeed! | Dec 3, 2008 |
Charlie Bavington wrote:
Anyway.... we often see threads about raising rates.
The advice is often to raise rates first with a) new clients and b) clients you don't mind losing.
I just wonder whether this could actually be a deliberate ploy.
Wow. I did not think of that. But it is indeed a possibility. Maybe she was not very fond of the work she did in the first place...
| | | | | Absolutely true! | Dec 3, 2008 |
Todd Field wrote:
One thing I learned: for every maddening situation, there is almost always a logical explanation. This can only be discovered through proactive communication. Otherwise, friends become enemies, and everyone parts ways unnecessarily.
I completely agree with this and try to implement the concept in my life. But for a very good reason: I prefer to think of bumblebees and blackbirds in my garden than of conflicts with people. In Spanish we say "it's better to get red once than to get yellow a hundred times", meaning that it's better to express disgust immediately (in a way as polite as possible) than having to think about it a hundred times along time.
| | | | | (mine, actually) | Dec 3, 2008 |
Todd Field wrote: Claudia summed it up perfectly: "she may also have been acting under another, completely different and equally valid set of assumptions"
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