| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7] > | The "Crime" of Using MT Thread poster: Michelangela
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Samuel Murray 
Netherlands
Local time: 20:10
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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Sheila Wilson wrote:
IMHO, it seems odd that a translator should on the one hand give an example of the sort of rubbish (to put it politely) that MT generates, and then on the other hand propose to use it, albeit after editing.
Okay, thanks for clafifying your comment. To me, the story is a warning that one should not trust translation work to a computer alone, but always involve a human in the process. That seems to be what the original poster seems to advocate.
[Edited at 2014-06-17 11:12 GMT]
| | | | PAS
Local time: 20:10
Polish to English
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Google Translate has a disconcerting tendency (it doesn't happen often, but it does happen) to reverse the meaning of some sentences - if the original says "I will do something", the translation comes out "I will not do something".
I never had the time or patience to figure out why it does this.
So it's not just a question of fixing crappy syntax. Sometimes the translation distorts the original text completely.
Having said that, MT is useful once in a blue moon for simpl... See more Google Translate has a disconcerting tendency (it doesn't happen often, but it does happen) to reverse the meaning of some sentences - if the original says "I will do something", the translation comes out "I will not do something".
I never had the time or patience to figure out why it does this.
So it's not just a question of fixing crappy syntax. Sometimes the translation distorts the original text completely.
Having said that, MT is useful once in a blue moon for simple but loooong lists of things. It is also capable of producing perfect translations of some sentences - I don't know how this works - maybe it has seen an identical sentence before and someone fixed it. But this does not happen very often.
The above is based on stuff which I have seen that was said to have been "translated", but was obviously googled
Disclaimer - I have never ever used MT in any official work. I have used it a few times (< 10) to translate text for colleagues when time was at a super premium. I googled the text, cleaned it up a bit and off it went. The intention was for the reader to understand the concept of the orignal, but that's as far as it went.
[Edited at 2014-06-17 12:33 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:10
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
| MT, the bogeyman of translators | Jun 17, 2014 |
For me the most interesting aspect of this thread is the vehemence of many of the responses. The original poster certainly touched a nerve.
| | | | | edit-feasible? charge your minimum translation rate to edit client's text! | Jun 17, 2014 |
MT is only good if you yourself run it and edit the draft it produces. And you must evaluate if the first draft is good before proceeding to edit. And the job must be revised from head to toe.
One must always check the feasibility of editing the first draft. If you will spend the same or more time with editing than you would translating it, it is unfeasible.
Sending it to somebody else to edit (client runs MT and wants to pay editing) is not a practice to be encouraged... See more MT is only good if you yourself run it and edit the draft it produces. And you must evaluate if the first draft is good before proceeding to edit. And the job must be revised from head to toe.
One must always check the feasibility of editing the first draft. If you will spend the same or more time with editing than you would translating it, it is unfeasible.
Sending it to somebody else to edit (client runs MT and wants to pay editing) is not a practice to be encouraged so be careful when a client says that he/she translated a text and wants you to edit it.
And if they insist, charge your minimum price for translating the job if the MT draft is edit-feasible.
The MT is always a translator's tool. No one needs to know how you do it so long as your final job is properly written and revised. However, it is up to you to decide if you should translate or use MT, and where to rule out MT entirely, be it for confidential reasons, or the quality of the MT.
And yes, there will come a day when MT will return you a nice draft with little or nothing to edit, but it will be based on translation memories from revised translations of standard text common to several industries such as boilerplate clauses and instructions in manuals, for example.
[Edited at 2014-06-17 11:53 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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| Client sends me MT to edit everyday | Jun 17, 2014 |
Verlow Woglo Junior wrote:
The MT is always a translator's tool. No one needs to know how you do it so long as your final job is properly written and revised. However, it is up to you to decide if you should translate or use MT, and where to rule out MT entirely, be it for confidential reasons, or the quality of the MT.
And yes, there will come a day when MT will return you a nice draft with little or nothing to edit, but it will be based on translation memories from revised translations of standard text common to several industries such as boilerplate clauses and instructions in manuals, for example.
I cannot avoid editing MT everyday since clients send me many MT jobs to work with. Clients always pay well for the jobs but I ignore many natural flow of concepts out of the translation.
Software is also good for translators if they know the algorithm e.g. how MT works.
Regards,
Soonthon L.
| | | | | Thank you, Michelangela and Samuel Murray | Jun 17, 2014 |
Michelangela, you have allowed the airing of many ideas (and prejudices, I might add!!). Thank you!
Samuel Murray wrote:
My comments
As usual, Mr Murray, your response is excellent: considered and encouraging and touching on many relevant points. Thank you!
It seems to me that there is a great deal of pure prejudice against those who use MT, but isn't it simply an extension of all the other ICT props we translators use: CATs/TeNTs; online dictionaries; company TMs; etc. I for one much prefer an online dictionary to a paper one: faster look up; more recent updates; clip and paste possibilities, especially for difficult-to-spell words; easier to always have with you; etc.
With the many references to "flow of text", "natural thought processes", "editing a sentence takes longer", am I right in supposing the anti-MT correspondents are faithfully using a fountain pen (or a quill) to allow for slower writing to gain the necessary flow and natural thought processes, and having to rewrite pages where a mistake has been made? Using MT and good ICT skills, anyone with a knowledge of keyboard shortcuts can cut, copy, paste and rewrite/respell very quickly, and all the while technical words and personal names have already been correctly placed in the text. In my experience as a teacher, I find that I can correct texts from my students rather quickly using "MARK CHANGES" in MS Word.
Use or non-use of MT (or any ICT helps) is not better or worse; just different. Some work better with one, some work better with the other.
It's the accurate, natural translation at the end that matters. And I have had to proofread and edit some REALLY wacky translations by people who had no IT competence at all.
Just my 2 cents!
[Edited at 2014-06-17 12:42 GMT]
| | | | | my thought also | Jun 17, 2014 |
Dan Lucas wrote:
For me the most interesting aspect of this thread is the vehemence of many of the responses. The original poster certainly touched a nerve.
MT is a tool. Using a tool is no crime. It can have pros and cons, the result can be better o worse, but it certainly shouldn't be a crime.
If you think it helps you, then use it.
If you think it's useless (to say it politely), then don't use it, but don't judge those who think differently.
It would be a crime using MT (without editing) and presenting it as human translation, but this crime will have the corresponding punishment, since no one will ever give you a second job.
| | | | | Simple, really. | Jun 17, 2014 |
If MT helps you produce better (quicker, neater, more accurate...) translations than you would without it, chances are you're incompetent as a translator. (And I'm being mild here).
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I certainly agree with Laura above.
As with any other tool, it all depends on how you use it. You may use wisely, you may use it wrongly. I don't think it is a crime by itself.
You may use CATs, MT, or even a pen, a typewriter and paper dictionaries. What matters is the final product.
| | | | SirReaL
Germany
Local time: 20:10
English to Russian
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| Finally someone speaks up | Jun 17, 2014 |
Michal Fabian wrote:
If MT helps you produce better (quicker, neater, more accurate...) translations than you would without it, chances are you're incompetent as a translator. (And I'm being mild here).
Exactly. Not too mild either, but hey, I said virtually the same thing last night:
I don't mean offense, but I'm afraid you're just an inexperienced translator. If you cannot think of a synonym that MT can... Given that MT only has 1 shot at it, and you have an unlimited number of attempts... Well, you have a long way to go.
| | | | SirReaL
Germany
Local time: 20:10
English to Russian
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| Humorous correction | Jun 17, 2014 |
William [Bill] Gray wrote:
Just my 2 cents!
Perhaps you forgot to add "per word." Because that's close to what people get paid for post-editing in some language pairs, I hear.
I kid, I kid.
| | | | | If MT helps you... I do not know, man | Jun 17, 2014 |
Russell Jones wrote:
ProZ.com polls suggest that 40% of professional translators are using MT to some degree, most because they find it improves their productivity.
Michal Fabian wrote:
If MT helps you produce better (quicker, neater, more accurate...) translations than you would without it, chances are you're incompetent as a translator. (And I'm being mild here).
Michal's comment is a perfect answer to Rusell's post.
The other day I read a post from a firm defender of MT, who presents herself as a technical translator. Well, I happened to read a question this "technical" translator posted on KudoZ to get help from colleagues.
Her question, a basic, semi-technical question, was incredibly simple to answer, even for a non-technical translator, but she couldn't answer it herself; she asked for help.
The reason why she so vehemently defends MT is obvious: as a substitute for knowledge. A very dangerous substitute, but she does not know it, which makes it doubly dangerous.
Please, read Michal's comment above again; it is worth it.
[Edited at 2014-06-17 16:17 GMT]
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Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 20:10
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| We all have gaps in our knowledge | Jun 17, 2014 |
Miguel Carmona wrote:
Her question, a basic, semi-technical question, was incredibly simple to answer, even for a non-technical translator, but she couldn't answer it herself; she asked for help. ... The reason why she so vehemently defends MT is obvious [to me]: as a substitute for knowledge.
We all have gaps in our knowledge and it is not fair to judge whether a translator is a good translator or a poor translator by whether he knows X, Y or Z piece of information.
| | | | SirReaL
Germany
Local time: 20:10
English to Russian
+ ...
| How large a gap in knowledge can you tolerate? | Jun 17, 2014 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
We all have gaps in our knowledge and it is not fair to judge whether a translator is a good translator or a poor translator by whether he knows X, Y or Z piece of information.
Some people say there are no dumb questions; if you don't know something, it would be dumb NOT to ask. That's all fine and dandy when you're learning, but not when you claim to be an experienced translator specializing in a certain area.
If a translator posts a KudoZ question asking how to translate, say, 'file' or 'FTP server,' I wouldn't label them as a bad translator overall, but I would definitely think they're not qualified to translate in the field of IT. And then I would wonder why they had accepted an assignment they were not qualified to complete. In this way their professionalism would indeed come into question.
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DLyons wrote:
LilianNekipelov wrote:
DLyons wrote:
Samuel Murray wrote:
Sheila Wilson wrote:
But why are you asking us? Your own profile says it perfectly!
I've read Michelangela's profile page (now that you mention it), but I find nothing disconcerting or telling about it. What are you referring to?
[Edited at 2014-06-17 09:15 GMT]
Two mistakes and quite stilted.
Use of an apocryphal story is a different issue.
It depends in what types of expression--fora are more speech-like--a more relaxed exchange of information. Did anybody ask you to correct a professional translator's English?
Sheila pointed it out first, Samuel questioned her. I replied factually - what's nasty about that?
This relates to a Profile Page, not Fora! Potential clients will be reading it.
And there I leave it 
[Edited at 2014-06-17 10:25 GMT]
It is as if someone told another person not to wear sandals with socks, or white socks with a black suit, never being asked about it--just at some conference, even though these remarks might have some merit when made under different circumstances--when asked. Otherwise, they would sound purely rude and out of place. This is the only reason why.
Did the owner of the profile ask anyone to correct his mistakes, especially in public? I don't think so. I thought it was slightly out of place--nothing major.
[Edited at 2014-06-17 18:14 GMT]
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