| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8] > | Attention Outsourcers: "best" rate Thread poster: Susan Welsh
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| I support Bernhard | Jun 30, 2015 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
VIRTUALLY EVERYTHING BERNHARD HAS SAID ON THIS PARTICULAR SUBJECT
We can all only state our opinions here, but I agree wholeheartedly with the OP and with what Bernhard has said.
IMHO, demanding a "best rate" from anyone who can use the Internet - i.e., the outsourcer IS NOT INVOLVED IN DETAILED NEGOTIATIONS with ONE SPECIFIC PERSON - is insulting and unprofessional, and can only be interpreted to mean that the main factor and quite possibly the only factor important to this outsourcer is finding the lowest price.
IMHO, any other interpretation of "best rate" is completely disingenuous or extremely naive.
IMHO, there is NO WAY for a professional to STATE a "best price" without first
a) thoroughly reviewing the files and
b) without thorough knowledge of what the project will entail and all of its parameters, not to mention
c) without knowledge of the idiosyncrasies involved in dealing with that particular outsourcer.
All of which is IMPOSSIBLE to know without more in-depth communication!
So, we have this:
1) IF (premise) it is impossible for a professional to state a "best rate" without knowing all the facts
2) IF (premise) it is impossible to know all the facts from this type of job post
3) It is therefore impossible to be professional AND state a "best rate" in response to such a job post, ergo
4) The outsourcer is expecting and/or demanding that we not be professional when negotiating to provide our services.
THAT is insulting.
| | | | Jeff Whittaker 
United States
Local time: 14:15
Spanish to English
+ ...
| For me, using the term "best rate"... | Jun 30, 2015 |
also implies that without this prompt, I would quote them the "they didn't ask for my best rate" rate, instead of a rate based on the parameters and conditions of the particular project. I don't think: "Ha, they didn't ask for my "best rate" and that means they are rich, desperate and willing to pay a premium to get this done".
By requesting a "best rate", they seem to be implying that I have a scale or rate-range (which some translators do) based on the job parameters and they are ... See more also implies that without this prompt, I would quote them the "they didn't ask for my best rate" rate, instead of a rate based on the parameters and conditions of the particular project. I don't think: "Ha, they didn't ask for my "best rate" and that means they are rich, desperate and willing to pay a premium to get this done".
By requesting a "best rate", they seem to be implying that I have a scale or rate-range (which some translators do) based on the job parameters and they are requesting that I quote a rate at the bottom of that range ("best rate for them, but not for me"), then I think they, especially being a new client for me, somehow have to justify why I should grant them this lower rate (easy project, very long deadline, fast payment).
In other words, if by "best rate" they mean to say that I will work for less under certain circumstances and they wish to induce me to work on the lower end of my scale, they should at least provide a reason (however unjustified it may end up being) why I should do this. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 19:15
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| Totally invalid comparison | Jun 30, 2015 |
Peter Zhuang wrote:
It's not uncommon that retailers advertise with "best price guarantee" or "lowest price". Case in point: there is a electronic retailer in Germany called Notebooksbillger - literally translated, notebooks cheaper.
It's unlikely that these retailers meant "best" or "cheapest" as an affront to themselves or their customers.
There are clear savings to be gained in areas such as marketing and packaging that don't affect the quality of the product in any way. Besides - that's the SELLER who's offering his wares at extremely competitive prices.
We charge for our time and expertise, and earning less in an hour can't be recouped in any way at all during a normal working week. And in this case, we're talking of the PURCHASER demanding those extremely competitive prices. That's really rather different.
| | | | | They do it because they can | Jun 30, 2015 |
As long as it works for them they will demand all sorts of things and post ever more ridiculous jobs.
As long as translators allow themselves to be treated like unemployed day labourers who do anything for an extra few bucks in their pocket then they will be treated that way.
If outsourcers can't find anyone to work for such rates they will slowly raise their bar, and if translators ignore such demands and communicate their terms firmly and politely then outsourcers will star... See more As long as it works for them they will demand all sorts of things and post ever more ridiculous jobs.
As long as translators allow themselves to be treated like unemployed day labourers who do anything for an extra few bucks in their pocket then they will be treated that way.
If outsourcers can't find anyone to work for such rates they will slowly raise their bar, and if translators ignore such demands and communicate their terms firmly and politely then outsourcers will start being nicer and more respectful. ▲ Collapse
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| They often do ... | Jun 30, 2015 |
Jeff Whittaker wrote:
... they should at least provide a reason (however unjustified it may end up being) why I should do this.
"Our budget is tight for this one"
| | | | Peter Zhuang
Germany
Local time: 20:15
German to English
+ ...
| It's not a direct comparison | Jun 30, 2015 |
Sheila Wilson wrote:
There are clear savings to be gained in areas such as marketing and packaging that don't affect the quality of the product in any way. Besides - that's the SELLER who's offering his wares at extremely competitive prices.
We charge for our time and expertise, and earning less in an hour can't be recouped in any way at all during a normal working week. And in this case, we're talking of the PURCHASER demanding those extremely competitive prices. That's really rather different.
I am not in any way directly comparing cheaper goods to services. My point is: "Best price" is commonly used in marketing speak as a way to convey budget information. On the bright side, if an agency is upfront about their limited budget, it saves me time by eliminating any further correspondence with the agency.
I am all for fair payment for quality translation. But even so, I just don't think that the phrase "best price" is as negatively charged as some people on this thread make it out to be. Blame it on ignorance or insensitivity on the part of some outsourcers, but there is no need be incensed by "best price", no matter how highly skilled the profession is.
| | | | Lincoln Hui
Hong Kong
Local time: 03:15
Member
Chinese to English
+ ...
| Some people just have thinner skins than others | Jun 30, 2015 |
Fiona Peterson wrote:
I couldn't agree more, Peter! I think various things have emerged from this lengthy thread; that the phrase "best rate" is not necessarily an insult, and that in any case you are not forced to accept it, whatever it is.
Or they have weaker minds that are easily swayed.
| | | | Jeff Whittaker
United States
Local time: 14:15
Spanish to English
+ ...
Just like I refuse to grant a discount for repetitions.
Many times they will tell you that there are "5,000 words and 2,000 repetitions" but that doesn't necessarily mean that they intend for you not to charge for them (after all, they are charging the client). Most translators make the mistake of automatically assuming that just because they mention that there are repetitions or cuddly matches, that means that they do not intend to pay for them. We voluntarily give up so much with... See more Just like I refuse to grant a discount for repetitions.
Many times they will tell you that there are "5,000 words and 2,000 repetitions" but that doesn't necessarily mean that they intend for you not to charge for them (after all, they are charging the client). Most translators make the mistake of automatically assuming that just because they mention that there are repetitions or cuddly matches, that means that they do not intend to pay for them. We voluntarily give up so much without ever been explicitly asked. It's only the weaker minds that willingly sacrifice their lives and capitulate to the scheme.
Lincoln Hui wrote:
Fiona Peterson wrote:
I couldn't agree more, Peter! I think various things have emerged from this lengthy thread; that the phrase "best rate" is not necessarily an insult, and that in any case you are not forced to accept it, whatever it is.
Or they have weaker minds that are easily swayed.
[Edited at 2015-06-30 19:18 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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MK2010
United States
Local time: 14:15
Member (2017)
French to English
+ ...
| I totally agree with this | Jun 30, 2015 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
Much of the problem gets obfuscated when we look only at the word rate and cry foul that it is too low.
Wiser translators would look at bringing in a certain amount of revenue at the end of say a month, that meets their desired standards of living (which is also dependent on the cost of living around them).
Looked at this way, we can get greater flexibility over rates. We can take some jobs at lower rates (but not "peanut" rates of course), and some at higher rates, and try to balance the income flow and make it match with our desired monthly figure. We can have a mix of low-paying (but reliable clients who offer many jobs) and high-paying ( who offer one or two jobs a year) clients in our portfolio, and can keep juggling the portfolio so that we continue to meet our monthly income goals.
Instead, if we keep our gaze fixed a word rate and use that as a standard for accepting or rejecting a job, we will often end up letting go profitable business opportunities from our grasp.
[Edited at 2015-06-30 02:51 GMT]
Spot on. I have clients who pay well with less regular work, clients who offer me more regular work with lesser rates, some who are awesome and pay well *and* have a lot of work, etc. Different industries have different rates, and some top agencies working for the federal government, for instance, offer rates that many here would view as too low. And yet these are top-notch agencies working for top-notch clients.
For me, how much I enjoy the material is also a HUGE factor. If I'm given the chance to translate a speech by the President of the United State...Um, yeah, I'm going to take it. Work at lower rates because it's a not-for-profit whose cause I believe in? Sure. Translate comic books at less than I probably should because I think it is just such an awesome and incredibly fun gig and I get to do it on regular basis? For me that's a yes.
As B says, it can be a good thing to look at the whole picture, not the word rate but the monthly income, instead. Last year I went through an absolutely terrifying dry spell, after two major contracts came to end. An agency I had never worked with before wrote me offering me an enormous, months-long gig. It was much lower than my usual rate, but it was also a total of 11,000 dollars. 11K is 11K, no matter how you look at it, and I jumped at the opportunity. It was a difficult but interesting project, but most of all it totally saved my a$$.
[Edited at 2015-06-30 21:21 GMT]
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 19:15
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
MK2010 wrote:
Last year I went through an absolutely terrifying dry spell, after two major contracts came to end. An agency I had never worked with before wrote me offering me an enormous, months-long gig. It was much lower than my usual rate, but it was also a total of 11,000 dollars. 11K is 11K, no matter how you look at it, and I jumped at the opportunity. It was a difficult but interesting project, but most of all it totally saved my a$$.
You clearly got away with it but it was surely a recipe for disaster on the face of it (based on the facts you've shared):
1) Your first job for a totally unknown client was a major project? How did you know the client was trustworthy? What if they hadn't paid? Where was the risk management in this?
2) You worked for months more or less for just one client? So if the client had gone belly up you'd have got zero for several months' work? Was that wise?
3) You worked for much lower than your usual rate? So how many better opportunities did you pass up during that time? Maybe you don't even know because you were busy working rather than keeping abreast of the industry?
4) You worked on a difficult project, yet accepted a lower rate? How does that make any sense?
5) You worked for months for 11,000 dollars? Fine, but how much did you earn for each hour, and how many hours per week did you work? Did you get any R&R, see your family and friends, have time to keep up with CPD etc? If you didn't have a great quality of life then it wasn't a great recompense. It's not as though it was a few months' work that paid for you to take the rest of the year off.
Translate comic books at less than I probably should because I think it is just such an awesome and incredibly fun gig and I get to do it on regular basis? For me that's a yes.
It's great to enjoy your work; I know I do. But please, if you're going to treat it like a hobby then don't call yourself a professional.
I know I'm being controversial here. I don't mean to insult you personally, MK2010, but this is exactly the mindset that is causing so many outsourcers to demand ever-lower best rates:
- I'm so desperate I'll agree to whatever you say
- I'm awe-struck that you've asked me so I'll do it for the kudos
- I'm having so much fun that there's no need to pay me much; I'd do it anyway
| | | | MK2010
United States
Local time: 14:15
Member (2017)
French to English
+ ...
Sheila Wilson wrote:
MK2010 wrote:
Last year I went through an absolutely terrifying dry spell, after two major contracts came to end. An agency I had never worked with before wrote me offering me an enormous, months-long gig. It was much lower than my usual rate, but it was also a total of 11,000 dollars. 11K is 11K, no matter how you look at it, and I jumped at the opportunity. It was a difficult but interesting project, but most of all it totally saved my a$$.
You clearly got away with it but it was surely a recipe for disaster on the face of it (based on the facts you've shared):
1) Your first job for a totally unknown client was a major project? How did you know the client was trustworthy? What if they hadn't paid? Where was the risk management in this?
2) You worked for months more or less for just one client? So if the client had gone belly up you'd have got zero for several months' work? Was that wise?
3) You worked for much lower than your usual rate? So how many better opportunities did you pass up during that time? Maybe you don't even know because you were busy working rather than keeping abreast of the industry?
4) You worked on a difficult project, yet accepted a lower rate? How does that make any sense?
5) You worked for months for 11,000 dollars? Fine, but how much did you earn for each hour, and how many hours per week did you work? Did you get any R&R, see your family and friends, have time to keep up with CPD etc? If you didn't have a great quality of life then it wasn't a great recompense. It's not as though it was a few months' work that paid for you to take the rest of the year off.
Translate comic books at less than I probably should because I think it is just such an awesome and incredibly fun gig and I get to do it on regular basis? For me that's a yes.
It's great to enjoy your work; I know I do. But please, if you're going to treat it like a hobby then don't call yourself a professional.
I know I'm being controversial here. I don't mean to insult you personally, MK2010, but this is exactly the mindset that is causing so many outsourcers to demand ever-lower best rates:
- I'm so desperate I'll agree to whatever you say
- I'm awe-struck that you've asked me so I'll do it for the kudos
- I'm having so much fun that there's no need to pay me much; I'd do it anyway
First of all: you gotta do what you gotta do. PERIOD. You negotiate your own life. Everybody's reality is different.
As for the 11K gig from a first-time client:
-I negotiated a deal that had me paid for every two chapters in a very loooooong book. So obviously if they hadn't come through on the first installment, I wasn't going to waste several months on that project. DUH.
-I made it VERY clear that I could only take on such a long-term project IF I was still able to accept jobs from my regular clients during that whole time. DUH !!!!!
Seriously, your post is offensive.
As translators, we are always building our resumes and acquiring new clients. One job that pays less leads to another job that pays more. Etc. ANY experience you have, even for lesser rates, is building your profile as a translator.
Quality of life is also a factor, at least for me. Some jobs are more enjoyable than others. I'm sure there are many industries that pay a whole hell of a lot more than comic books. But guess what? When I get the opportunity to work on stuff I love, from a major player in the industry, who offers lesser rates but regular work? Yeah, I take it. Because this is my life. This is what I choose to do with my time. Which does not mean that we don't negotiate along the way. As a matter of fact, I've recently negotiated better deals on two assignments.
But that's not even the point, since I clearly stated in my post that I do a bunch of different kind of work for different kinds of rates. That is MY reality.
Call your own shots in life. Sometimes making less on something you enjoy is actually a better way of living. I would freaking hate my life if the only material I was working on was high-paying super technical or legal stuff. To each their own.
And incidentally, no, it's not a hobby. It's my only source of income.
[Edited at 2015-07-01 02:43 GMT]
| | | | | What's not okay for me | Jul 1, 2015 |
MK2010 wrote:
But that's not even the point, since I clearly stated in my post that I do a bunch of different kind of work for different kinds of rates. That is MY reality.
Call your own shots in life. Sometimes making less on something you enjoy is actually a better way of living. I would freaking hate my life if the only material I was working on was high-paying super technical or legal stuff. To each their own.
And incidentally, no, it's not a hobby. It's my only source of income.
[Edited at 2015-07-01 02:43 GMT]
Hi MK2010,
Let me just make a few comments, and they're not meant as a personal attack.
You keep saying that it's okay to make less for certain jobs, and yes, if that's what you do, who can keep you from it? But my question is how low do you go? Have you visited the Proz.com translation rate page? Are these the rates (the standard rates mentioned there) that you get paid for your lower-paid work? I wouldn't be complaining too much if that's the case and you are new. Or is it sometimes lower, say in the USD .03 - .07/word range? Because that's the range that we see often on job portals and I hold that accepting those jobs is not okay. It's just not okay. It's unprofessional. It doesn't matter if your next job pays .15/word. USD .05/word or even .05 or 0.06 Euros/word are not okay.
Do you care about the status and future of the profession? Do you agree that you're not working in a vacuum, a separate bubble of yours, but that your actions have to do with the profession at large?
I believe there is a schism between those who insist they must be paid according to their skills and the intellectual work they do (and that doesn't mean we work for astronomically high or unreasonably high rates/prices) and those who take on/accept a lot of very cheap stuff because they think they need that cheap stuff to survive or they see nothing wrong with it. Again, I mean rock bottom prices, peanuts, a pittance. Doing that is feeding the beast so to speak.
I suppose you can live well and I don't want to pry into your personal life, but if you are single, it's certainly easier to "survive" or, I guess, even have a great life?! But you did mention that that big job saved your a.. .
But fact is that lots of translators are indeed exploited every day because they don't care or don't know that they should actually ask and work for more money.
Problem is also, every time someone accepts a cheap job, it's something that is really taken away from professionals who know what they're worth and what they deserve. I know what I am worth, and even though I am flexible, this isn't supposed to be a low-paying profession.
It's not easy to be a professional. It's not easy to get good and better jobs. We don't work for the same "very adequate" rates all the time. But we draw the line somewhere. There is a bottom line. Okay, for me. I shouldn't be talking for other people.
But I speak out against low rates and unprofessional behavior on both sides, that of the the agencies, and that of the translators. A year ago, I was entertaining the thought that we're all going to go down, meaning I 'll get out and do something else before I accept peanuts, but I can tell you that it is indeed possible to find and keep those good clients. It's not easy, but they're there, and people that are good translators seem to be wising up. They know not to accept those nasty low-ball offers or "best rate demands." Why? Because that cheap train is entering a very dark tunnel, as prices of these unscrupulous outsourcers reach new lows. The result is that low rate really meets low quality, most of the time. And that's a deadly combination.
But even personally, you can really only go so low before you ask yourself; What the hell am I doing?!
Any agreement?
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Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 19:15
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| Apologies for the offence | Jul 1, 2015 |
MK2010 wrote:
As for the 11K gig from a first-time client:
I did make it clear that all I had to go on were the facts before me, MK2010, and clearly the reality wasn't as daft as it seemed .
I do apologise for offending you. I'm normally careful not to make personal attacks but I take my profession very seriously and it's one that's being attacked from several quarters at the moment. I sometimes feel the need to defend it, which can lead to attacks - sorry.
Attacks from outsourcers is something that we all have to deal with all the time. Their "offers" offend me almost daily. But that's akin to the "them and us" situation of salaried staff so I dare say we should always expect some conflict in that area. They necessarily see things from a different perspective. Mind you, some clients find it possible to do business perfectly happily without creating any conflict at all, so it isn't a given. The only way we can retain some dignity and decency in our profession is if we insist on the fact that we are providing an intellectual service that can't just be bought off the shelf from the cheapest shop. Our time is valuable, our expertise is valuable.
By selling ourselves cheaply because we enjoy doing something that we do well just seems to me to be pulling the rug out from under the feet of all professional translators. It gives outsourcers the right to add one other "incentive" to the list of "goodies" they are offering in return for a reduction in our rates (as if they had any right to offer anything at all):
- it's straightforward stuff
- we can give you loads more
- anyway, you'll enjoy it, it's fun!!!
By the way, you aren't the only person to have commented on the fact that it can be a good thing to accept a lower rate if it's large volume. I suppose the idea is that you can get an assured supply of income, albeit less than your services are worth. I disagree entirely. I think if you are desperate then accepting several smallish jobs at a lower rate than normal can be a sensible thing to do, to keep the wolves from the door short term while doing everything to try to secure better-paid work. But accepting high volumes at low rates is just a downward spiral:
- little time, energy and even inclination left at the end of the day to look for better-paid work
- no time to cater for large volumes of better-paid work (even if you can fit in the odd small job)
- that client is never going to pay higher in the future; why would he?
When the job finishes, you're in exactly the same predicament as before. What little money you have in the bank will soon disappear and then you'll grab at the next high-volume, low-rate job.
The answer to lean periods HAS to be to build a solid client base with several regular + frequent clients who happily pay your rates, several occasional ones who pay similar rates, and a few who pay reliably (i.e. they DO pay) but who you often turn down because they won't/can't pay your normal rates.
| | | | Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 14:15
Spanish to English
+ ...
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
But even personally, you can really only go so low before you ask yourself; What the hell am I doing?!
Any agreement?
Yes. I for one certainly agree. Even big box retailers like Costco and Sam's Club aren't going to offer you the 48-roll pack of toilet paper for a couple bucks. Of course, such outfits can set very low limits on their acceptable profit margins because of the volume of sales they can generate. An individual freelancer, no matter how efficient and productive, does not have this option, especially if he or she lives in a country with an advanced economy.
So a 10% discount off my (already very reasonable) regular rate for a big job with a generous deadline that allows me to accept other work? Probably acceptable to me. A 15% discount? Maybe. What about 20%? Probably not. And 30%? definitely not.
When it gets to 30% and more, and the hourly rate is pushing that of table-wipers at Burger King, then you really do have to ask yourself (to paraphrase my German colleague) "What the f#@k am I doing here?!"
[Edited at 2015-07-01 16:40 GMT]
| | | | | MK2010 didn't mention rates | Jul 1, 2015 |
Well I do agree with MK2010s approach to jobs and work, and since she didn't actually mention any specific rates her lower rates may as well be well in the professional range.
And if she is able to not just make a living, but a comfortable living (in the US?) then I don't see any problems.
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