| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16] > | KudoZ: should "rubbish" help be appreciated? Thread poster: IanW (X)
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| You miss my point | Jul 24, 2006 |
It's not about native speakers, and I think this forum has already gone into that.
My point is that the guy misunderstood the question. Fair enough. So why not give him a chance to adjust his confidence level. (It's beyond me why it was so high, but it was.)
The guy figured out he'd made a mistake, so give him the chance to lower his confidence level.
I think one of the big gripes here (correct me if I'm wrong, folks) is not only rubbish answers, but the fact that the rubbish i... See more It's not about native speakers, and I think this forum has already gone into that.
My point is that the guy misunderstood the question. Fair enough. So why not give him a chance to adjust his confidence level. (It's beyond me why it was so high, but it was.)
The guy figured out he'd made a mistake, so give him the chance to lower his confidence level.
I think one of the big gripes here (correct me if I'm wrong, folks) is not only rubbish answers, but the fact that the rubbish is compounded by blithely selected confidence levels.
I've come to know whose answers I can trust and whose I can't. The interesting thing, however, is that the ones I think are the best translators never use "I'm 100% sure".
Interesting, ain't it?
Catherine
Kirill Semenov wrote:
Common, please, let's stop about not native speakers, it has little to do with `rubbish' questions. For example, Sanskrit-English and vice versa are my pairs of interests, and I'm from Ukraine, imagine! I don't work in the pairs for money, but does it mean I can't be of any use? ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Agree with Catherine | Jul 24, 2006 |
Catherine, we are definitely talking about the same person...
Enrique. I agree with you too. Mods should not act as linguistic authorities. IMHO they should just use the power bestowed on them as moderators and a little of common sense when cases that border the ridiculous appear. It is a way to maintain the quality of the community. Believe me, this guy has repeatedly intervened with unacceptable answers, going against the simple rules of Proz (high confidence level when he ... See more Catherine, we are definitely talking about the same person...
Enrique. I agree with you too. Mods should not act as linguistic authorities. IMHO they should just use the power bestowed on them as moderators and a little of common sense when cases that border the ridiculous appear. It is a way to maintain the quality of the community. Believe me, this guy has repeatedly intervened with unacceptable answers, going against the simple rules of Proz (high confidence level when he had no clue of what he was talking about, or giving more than one answer, sometimes even THREE answers for the same question). And what puzzles me is that NEVER, not even in ONE occasion, did the moderator intervene. It is unacceptable for me. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Know your limits | Jul 24, 2006 |
cbolton wrote:
The interesting thing, however, is that the ones I think are the best translators never use "I'm 100% sure".
Oh, so true! I think it's because the best translators know their own limitations. If only everyone on the site was as honest!!
| | | | | Linguistic authorities | Jul 24, 2006 |
cbolton wrote:
No one's asking the moderators to serve as "linguistic authorities". Simply as "authorities" who uphold the rules of the site. So why not reinstate the rule?
Hi Catherine,
To enforce a rule stating that you must have a certain linguistic level to participate in KudoZ would require moderators to make a linguistic judgment on the user to evaluate if he/she is good enough to participate. This would mean acting as linguistic authorities.
All users can use the peer comments feature to eventually disagree with answers they consider wrong (including the linguistic reasons behind the disagreement).
Regards,
Enrique
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Enrique wrote:
To enforce a rule stating that you must have a certain linguistic level to participate in KudoZ would require moderators to make a linguistic judgment on the user to evaluate if he/she is good enough to participate. This would mean acting as linguistic authorities.
Not true. I think that we (their peers) are often completely capable of making these judgements. We are (or at least, I am), however, becoming increasingly frustrated by the lack of rules and moderator support available to censure those who persist in flooding the boards with what is patently rubbish.
| | | | | I still don't see the problem | Jul 24, 2006 |
I'm not saying that, for example, a moderator whose working languages are Italian and French can be expected to step in on a question in Swahili.
What I AM saying is that if other users write to complain about abuse, as Liliana did, a moderator should certainly be able (and willing) to judge whether or not the rules have been ignored and enforce them if that's the case.
But to do that, you have to HAVE the rule in the first place. Which Proz does not.
As I said, that handbasket... See more I'm not saying that, for example, a moderator whose working languages are Italian and French can be expected to step in on a question in Swahili.
What I AM saying is that if other users write to complain about abuse, as Liliana did, a moderator should certainly be able (and willing) to judge whether or not the rules have been ignored and enforce them if that's the case.
But to do that, you have to HAVE the rule in the first place. Which Proz does not.
As I said, that handbasket is picking up speed.
Catherine
Enrique wrote:
To enforce a rule stating that you must have a certain linguistic level to participate in KudoZ would require moderators to make a linguistic judgment on the user to evaluate if he/she is good enough to participate. This would mean acting as linguistic authorities.
All users can use the peer comments feature to eventually disagree with answers they consider wrong (including the linguistic reasons behind the disagreement).
Regards,
Enrique ▲ Collapse
| | | | Kirill Semenov 
Ukraine
Local time: 08:30
Member (2004)
English to Russian
+ ...
| Confidence level | Jul 24, 2006 |
cbolton wrote:
The interesting thing, however, is that the ones I think are the best translators never use "I'm 100% sure".
Interesting, ain't it?
I'm totally agree with this, and I had proposed to get rid of the confidence indicator before. I don't think it's really indicates anything but some people self-confidence. Not that I'm among `the best translator', but I always put it on 3rd mark, always. And it's time-consuming because when you forget to select anything in the drop-down menu, you have to send your answer once again (yes, to be the first to grab the points!). An extra - and totally senseless- field. Let's get rid of this strange relict of self-aggrandizing in kudoZ.
| | | | | It's not about 'linguistic authority'. it's just good advice for all of us. | Jul 24, 2006 |
Enrique wrote:
writeaway wrote:
There used to be advice 'not to answer questions in languages and/or fields' if you don't know them well enough. Or something to that effect.
Why was this taken out? Wouldn't bringing that back and placing it in a visible position do a lot to stop rubbish answers? And send a warning shot to those posting questions for translations they never should have accepted?
It was a rule and was taken away because moderators do not serve as linguistic authorities in the site, and therefore it is not part of their duties to evaluate the linguistic value of an asker or answerer.
Regards,
Enrique
That piece of advice said nothing about Mod intervention at all. It was just general advice to people answering Kudoz, along with another note about getting peer comments and not to take them personally. What was the purpose of removing all that? Has nothing at all to do with anyone being a 'linguistic authority'. was just a guide to introduce people to what they should expect if they do Kudoz. Seems that the baby was thrown out with the bathwater with some of the 'changes/improvements' introduced on Proz.
[Edited at 2006-07-24 17:23]
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| We could do that | Jul 24, 2006 |
writeaway wrote:
Enrique wrote:
writeaway wrote:
There used to be advice 'not to answer questions in languages and/or fields' if you don't know them well enough. Or something to that effect.
Why was this taken out? Wouldn't bringing that back and placing it in a visible position do a lot to stop rubbish answers? And send a warning shot to those posting questions for translations they never should have accepted?
It was a rule and was taken away because moderators do not serve as linguistic authorities in the site, and therefore it is not part of their duties to evaluate the linguistic value of an asker or answerer.
Regards,
Enrique
That piece of advice said nothing about Mod intervention at all. It was just general advice to people answering Kudoz, along with another note about getting peer comments and not to take them personally. What was the purpose of removing all that? Has nothing at all to do with anyone being a 'linguistic authority'. was just a guide to introduce people to what they should expect if they do Kudoz. Seems that the baby was thrown out with the bathwater with some of the 'changes/improvements' introduced on Proz.
We could add this piece of advice again, just as you say, not as rules, not asking (nor convalidating) moderators intervention, just good advice for all of us.
I would have no problem with that.
Regards,
Enrique
| | | | | That would be great! | Jul 25, 2006 |
Enrique wrote:
We could add this piece of advice again, just as you say, not as rules, not asking (nor convalidating) moderators intervention, just good advice for all of us.
I would have no problem with that.
Regards,
Enrique
It would allow people to read about Kudoz before they start answering/asking and would help keep them from getting unnecessarily upset by peer comments. A few new people seemed really surprised and offended to see peers not agree 100% with their answers.
Since these are not 'rules' at all, just a bit of advice about Kudoz, then returning this section would be really great. Thanks Enrique.
[Edited at 2006-07-25 08:45]
| | | | | To writeaway: good suggestion about general search skills.. | Jul 25, 2006 |
writeaway wrote:
On a more sarcastic note, why not open up a 'general' section for people who haven't mastered basic research skills, like using the www or dictionaries or for whom translating is like scuba diving without any equipment.
I don't think your above suggestion is sarcastic. I totally agree with you that apparently some Kudoz askers do not seem to know how to approach the search/solution of a given term.
I just found a case (in the EN>ES section, see the term "apartment") where someone is asking about a phrase that appears exactly as is in one of the strings of one of the Microsoft glossaries.
Although someone else answered with a valid solution, the point is that the phrase has already been "officially" translated into Spanish by Microsoft itself (and, to be honest, I am wondering if the asker proposed the question to "test" Kudoz answerers).
So yes, I definitely vote for adding a general word search "warning" or help text for Kudoz askers who might not be familiar with search engines and terminology search (of course, I am assuming that people are not asking questions out of laziness to search themselves...).
| | | | BAmary (X)
Canada
Local time: 01:30
English to Spanish
+ ...
Someone said in a previous post that this is a site for professional translators. I firmly believe that here lies the real problem. Most of Proz members are NOT translators, so it seems natural that people who don't have a clue about this profession answer whatever comes to their minds.
I'm really surprised that no one has ever addressed this issue. In Ian's previous thread (a couple of weeks ago), I mentioned this and didn't get one answer in the forum, but weird enough, I got sev... See more Someone said in a previous post that this is a site for professional translators. I firmly believe that here lies the real problem. Most of Proz members are NOT translators, so it seems natural that people who don't have a clue about this profession answer whatever comes to their minds.
I'm really surprised that no one has ever addressed this issue. In Ian's previous thread (a couple of weeks ago), I mentioned this and didn't get one answer in the forum, but weird enough, I got several instant messages and e-mails approving of what I had written.
I don't mean to be rude, but I really feel disrespected when someone writes in their professional line "John Doe, engineer become translator". What if we do it the other way round? Can I say Maria Takacs, translator become engineer? Pretty unprofessional, right?
I even asked in my post if you would accept to be examined by a "doctor" who didn't go to Medical School, or represented in Court by an "attorney" who didn't attend Law School. I am sorry to see that many of us studied 4 or more years only to be stolen work by people who just decided to become "translators" because they happened to speak two languages and probably wanted to work from home, or didn't have a job, or whatever.
Much of the rubbish comes from these people, who have no idea about translation techniques, research, or even common sense. I know there are some translators who did not go to school but have years of experience, especially because translation programs in universities are relatively new, so I don't want to generalize, but I'm aware that these people with no degree and a lot of experience are rare to find.
If this is a site for professional translators, why not start by making sure that its members actually ARE professional translators? I’m sick and tired of people bringing down the translation profession, and accepting people without any education whatsoever in our community, and consequently their rubbish answers, only contributes to bring it down even more. And I repeat, before someone snaps at me, I’m NOT saying all people translating without qualifications answer rubbish. I’m just saying they should go to school before they call themselves translators. ▲ Collapse
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nruddy
Mexico
Local time: 00:30
German to English
| Jack of all trades... | Jul 26, 2006 |
Four years of a translation degree is generally not a great qualification. Most people come out not knowing much about anything because the levels (at least in primary degrees) are so low.
If you have a specific concept, let's say in the engineering field, would you not be inclined to accept a well-founded answer from an engineer turned translator than from somebody who did a general four-year translation degree and has a couple of years' experience in translating such texts? Would... See more Four years of a translation degree is generally not a great qualification. Most people come out not knowing much about anything because the levels (at least in primary degrees) are so low.
If you have a specific concept, let's say in the engineering field, would you not be inclined to accept a well-founded answer from an engineer turned translator than from somebody who did a general four-year translation degree and has a couple of years' experience in translating such texts? Would you as a translator claim to know better than a subject-area expert?
I disagree with the statement that most of the rubbish comes from non-translators. Most of the rubbish comes from people who have little idea of the subject area in question, perhaps do not understand the source text or the underlying meaning or are unprofessional enough to think that just anything will do. This is a MENTALITY problem. It has nothing to do with having a translation degree. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Dyran Altenburg (X)
United States
Local time: 01:30
English to Spanish
+ ...
| Trashlators, Inc. | Jul 26, 2006 |
BAmary wrote:
Someone said in a previous post that this is a site for professional translators. I firmly believe that here lies the real problem. Most of Proz members are NOT translators, so it seems natural that people who don't have a clue about this profession answer whatever comes to their minds.
That indeed is the heart of the problem: Too much chaff and not enough wheat.
Come to think of it, I've been saying that for 7 years now, give or take.
I very much doubt things will change, though.
--
Dyran
(who would love to be proven wrong)
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