| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7] > | Don't cry for excessive rates, Argentina! Thread poster: Aurora Humarán (X)
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Aurora Humarán (X) 
Argentina
Local time: 22:49
English to Spanish
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TOPIC STARTER
Ralf Lemster wrote:
I believe that the quoted legal text is relevant to this topic; at the same time, I would appreciate if we could keep this discussion in English.
Thanks, Ralf
We are discussing in English, Ralf.
I don't know if there is an official translation of this law. Anyway, we have time to find out or have it translated if there isn't one and if it really proves relevant. (¿Luis?).
Au
| | | | | Moderators acting in good faith, but as confused as I am | Aug 28, 2007 |
Enrique wrote:
Aurora's quote to the Multilingual Magazine is available in the first post of this thread. The article can be downloaded for free in the magazine's page. I am not sure if copyright laws authorizes ProZ.com to bring the article directly to our members' screens, but the path to the article is clear to anyone interested.
The link to Multilingual is NOT AVAILABLE in Aurora's first post - she was asked to remove it by two moderators acting jointly.
I don't believe this was malicious - they were acting on the site rules as they understand them (and they, like all the other moderators, are doing a good job without any payment, and I, for one, am grateful for it).
However, Enrique, you later gave the path to the very same link that the moderators had earlier removed. This shows me that you and the moderators are still not sure how the rule should apply.
This is why I suggested that the rule needs to be revised. The revised rule should preserve the barrier about bringing Blue Board topics into the forums, but it needs to cater for some of the issues that have come up in this thread (i.e. statements in public discussions that happen to come from outsourcers, and statements made in forum discussions by people like Ralf and Aurora who are outsourcers as well as translators).
After all, if Ralf says on the forum that he looks for quality rather than the lowest price when he outsources a job, and if somebody then commends him for this policy, then both he and the respondent have (technically) broken the site rules. I seem to remember that this scenario has, in fact, occured somewhere in the forums.
| | | | | Lack of information | Aug 28, 2007 |
Indeed, the way in which the discussion is now introduced and presented seems somewhat flawed and incomplete. Aurora's first post starts with a quote which might be part of a private e-mail sent to her by a potential client, or it might be part of an article in a periodical aimed at serving the "interests" of the translation industry. Although both cases are worth discussing, it is obvious that they are two different situations which raise different issues. This information is now being hid to a... See more Indeed, the way in which the discussion is now introduced and presented seems somewhat flawed and incomplete. Aurora's first post starts with a quote which might be part of a private e-mail sent to her by a potential client, or it might be part of an article in a periodical aimed at serving the "interests" of the translation industry. Although both cases are worth discussing, it is obvious that they are two different situations which raise different issues. This information is now being hid to anyone who hasn't followed the discussion right from the beginning and doesn't know the context of Au's first post.
Yes, part of this information is revealed later on in the discussion, but will anybody keep on reading through a number of messages which apparently seem to have no sense?
Regards,
Eva ▲ Collapse
| | | | Aurora Humarán (X)
Argentina
Local time: 22:49
English to Spanish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Ralf Lemster wrote:
I believe that the quoted legal text is relevant to this topic;
There is a reasonable English summary of the main points here:
http://tinyurl.com/39hooy
Objective: To guarantee the proper functioning of the markets, ensuring free competition and sanctioning behaviors that limit, restrict or distort competition or that constitute abuse of market position in a way that could adversely affect the general economic interest. (Summary of Law 25.156)
Scope of application: Acts or behaviors, of any type, related to the production or trade of goods or services, whose purpose or effect is to limit, restrict, falsify or distort competition or market access, or that constitute abuse of dominant position in a market, in a manner which may result in harm to the general economic interest are prohibited and shall be penalized.
The procuring of significant competitive advantages through violation, declared to be such by administrative act or final judgment, of other regulations is included in this article, provided the conditions stated in the preceding paragraph occur.
(Article 1 of the Law on Protection of Competition)
General prohibitions: Acts and behaviors, of any type, related to the production or trade of goods or services that limit, restrict or distort competition or constitute abuse of dominant position in a market, in a manner which may result in harm to the general economic interest are prohibited and shall be penalized.
The procuring of significant competitive advantages through the violation, declared to be such by administrative act or final judgment, of other regulations is included in this article, provided the conditions stated therein occur. (Article 1)
Etc.
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| Don't cry, if you paid low | Aug 28, 2007 |
Let’s continue reading and see what happens with applicants who have passed the validations and preliminary tests, and supposedly do not have “unrealistic expectations in terms of compensation”, thus qualifying:
“Applicants who qualify gain a “trial” status and enter an initial period of extra-close assessment by our in house language specialist and project managers. Many fall by the wayside because of substandard or unreliable translation quality; failure to meet deadli... See more Let’s continue reading and see what happens with applicants who have passed the validations and preliminary tests, and supposedly do not have “unrealistic expectations in terms of compensation”, thus qualifying:
“Applicants who qualify gain a “trial” status and enter an initial period of extra-close assessment by our in house language specialist and project managers. Many fall by the wayside because of substandard or unreliable translation quality; failure to meet deadlines or instructions; not responding to feedback; or inability to communicate efficiently. The net effect is that XXX works with a relatively limited number of proven external resources on a frequent and regular basis.”
Well, it’s a little bit reassuring that the number of freelancers accepting to work at low (or “realistic”) rates and being able to deliver good translations is relatively limited.
Apparently, this company has an in house language specialist and puts time and effort to perform an extra-close assessment on freelancers. Others do not, in spite of their claims: they use cheap translators after validating their accreditations and having their linguistic tests and actual translations reviewed – or even not – by cheap editors.
And they are everywhere, flooding markets with cheap and horrible translations for years.
Fortunately, serious customers even with a “limited knowledge of the market” know well the risks of purchasing cheap translations sold by low-cost translation companies and done by low-paid translators, especially when their brand image is concerned.
Take care,
Cristóbal ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Art. 2(a) of Law 25156 | Aug 28, 2007 |
Aurora Humarán wrote:
Ralf Lemster wrote:
I believe that the quoted legal text is relevant to this topic;
There is a reasonable English summary of the main points here:
http://tinyurl.com/39hooy
Objective: To guarantee the proper functioning of the markets, ensuring free competition and sanctioning behaviors that limit, restrict or distort competition or that constitute abuse of market position in a way that could adversely affect the general economic interest. (Summary of Law 25.156)
Scope of application: Acts or behaviors, of any type, related to the production or trade of goods or services, whose purpose or effect is to limit, restrict, falsify or distort competition or market access, or that constitute abuse of dominant position in a market, in a manner which may result in harm to the general economic interest are prohibited and shall be penalized.
The procuring of significant competitive advantages through violation, declared to be such by administrative act or final judgment, of other regulations is included in this article, provided the conditions stated in the preceding paragraph occur.
(Article 1 of the Law on Protection of Competition)
General prohibitions: Acts and behaviors, of any type, related to the production or trade of goods or services that limit, restrict or distort competition or constitute abuse of dominant position in a market, in a manner which may result in harm to the general economic interest are prohibited and shall be penalized.
The procuring of significant competitive advantages through the violation, declared to be such by administrative act or final judgment, of other regulations is included in this article, provided the conditions stated therein occur. (Article 1)
Etc.
Hi Au,
I have a court hearing in a couple of hours and will not be able to participate until later today.
A relevant provision is Article 2 that lists the prohibited activities. Paragrah a) says:
a) Fijar, concertar o manipular en forma directa o indirecta el precio de venta, o compra de bienes o servicios al que se ofrecen o demanden en el mercado, así como intercambiar información con el mismo objeto o efecto;
Fixing, concerting or manipulating directly or indirectly the purchase or sale price of goods or services offered or demanded in the market as well as exchanging information for the same purpose;
A single event, such as the specific article in Multilingual, might not be much, just "one man" opinion. However, it is no longer an isolated event. It would be interesting to read here from those persons who were present at that meeting (IMTT?) in an Argentine city (Córdoba?) mentioned in that other site. As I understand, in that meeting, something similar was said by representatives (high ranking representatives) from several agencies.
Price fixing? Difficult to say, impossible for me as I am not an Argentine lawyer. However, price fixing does not just mean negotiating and signing a "secret protocol" in a "dark, smoke-filled room."
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I really admire you! Thanks for carry the message everywhere, for defending our profession with that fighting spirit. Of course, I am a translator who has not so much experience as many of the translators that participated in this forum. But, I wanted to give my opinion about this. I am against of all the people that try to exploit us, but that depend on us. Please, people, it is really important to defend our work, the years of study, the effort of our parents when we were studying. Do not give... See more I really admire you! Thanks for carry the message everywhere, for defending our profession with that fighting spirit. Of course, I am a translator who has not so much experience as many of the translators that participated in this forum. But, I wanted to give my opinion about this. I am against of all the people that try to exploit us, but that depend on us. Please, people, it is really important to defend our work, the years of study, the effort of our parents when we were studying. Do not give up; our profession needs to be protected and not to be destroyed by a handful of agencies that only want to gain a lot of money at our expense. I only want to work as a translator for many years; I love my profession and that’s why I raise my voice to protect something so valuable: DIGNITY.
Regards!
Fernando ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Please accept my apologies... | Aug 29, 2007 |
if you consider it off topic, but couldn't resist the urge to copy the lyrics of a song that had always moved me, but had long forgotten, until this morning, when I happened to heard it while reading this thread. Maybe it is that I come from a family of translators, or maybe it is just me...
"Rain on the Scarecrow"
Scarecrow on a wooden cross; blackbird in the barn;
Four-hundred empty acres that used to be my farm.
I grew up like my daddy did, my grandpa cle... See more if you consider it off topic, but couldn't resist the urge to copy the lyrics of a song that had always moved me, but had long forgotten, until this morning, when I happened to heard it while reading this thread. Maybe it is that I come from a family of translators, or maybe it is just me...
"Rain on the Scarecrow"
Scarecrow on a wooden cross; blackbird in the barn;
Four-hundred empty acres that used to be my farm.
I grew up like my daddy did, my grandpa cleared this land;
When I was five I walked the fence while grandpa held my hand.
Rain on the scarecrow, blood on the plow;
This land fed a nation, this land made me proud;
And, son, I'm just sorry there's no legacy for you now . . .
Rain on the scarecrow, blood on the plow;
Rain on the scarecrow, blood on the plow.
The crops we grew last summer weren't enough to pay the loans;
Couldn't buy the seed to plant this spring and the Farmers Bank foreclosed.
Called my old friend Schepman up to auction off the land;
He said John it's just my job and I hope you understand.
Hey, calling it your job, ol' hoss, sure don't make it right,
But if you want me to I'll say a prayer for your soul tonight.
And grandma's on the front porch swing with a Bible in her hand;
Sometimes I hear her singing "Take me to the Promised Land."
When you take away a man's dignity, he can't work his fields and cows . . .
There'll be blood on the scarecrow, blood on the plow;
Blood on the scarecrow, blood on the plow.
Well there's ninety-seven crosses planted in the courthouse yard—
Ninety-seven families who lost ninety-seven farms.
I think about my grandpa and my neighbors and my name,
And some nights I feel like dyin', like that scarecrow in the rain.
Rain on the scarecrow, blood on the plow;
This land fed a nation, this land made me proud;
And, son, I'm just sorry they're just memories for you now . . .
Rain on the scarecrow, blood on the plow;
Rain on the scarecrow, blood on the plow.
Artist: John Cougar Mellencamp
Album: Scarecrow ▲ Collapse
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| And the circle is complete | Aug 29, 2007 |
I started reading this thread because it had little flames on the folder (that always pulls me in). I kept reading the thread because I'm always suspicious when I see censorship at work. However, I'm going to have to stop reading it now because my head is spinning.
You see, I have a subscription to multilingual, and Enrique was nice enough to let me in on what issue the article in question was published. Aurora let me in on who wrote it, though rather surreptitiously (I like yo... See more I started reading this thread because it had little flames on the folder (that always pulls me in). I kept reading the thread because I'm always suspicious when I see censorship at work. However, I'm going to have to stop reading it now because my head is spinning.
You see, I have a subscription to multilingual, and Enrique was nice enough to let me in on what issue the article in question was published. Aurora let me in on who wrote it, though rather surreptitiously (I like your style!). I've gone through the multilingual archives as well as one can expect after a long day of back-to-school flu patients and 6K very poorly written words to translate, AND I STILL CAN'T FIND THE ARTICLE.
Seriously, we're all adults here. I think we can handle the truth (no matter what Jack Nicholson said). The fact is, the search function on multilingual is not very good, and my ADD has me clicking all their sponsor's links instead of finding the article. Surely we've established that the article does not violate Rule 8 (didn't we, I'm not sure anymore), so can we just get the original link back?
I'll check the thread in the morning and maybe we will have all learned to get along.
That which doesn't kill me may well leave me crippled.
SaludoZ! ▲ Collapse
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[quote]Fernando Walker wrote:
"Please, people, it is really important to defend our work, the years of study, the effort of our parents when we were studying. Do not give up; our profession needs to be protected and not to be destroyed by a handful of agencies that only want to gain a lot of money at our expense. I only want to work as a translator for many years; I love my profession and that’s why I raise my voice to protect something so valuable: DIGNITY."
The best way to defend this (once) profession, I'm afraid, is simply to abandon it as it is obviously not a worthwhile investment.
This is the way to go:
http://business.guardian.co.uk/story/0,,2157974,00.html
You just need to work out the steps you need to take to get there (providing you're young enough).
Leave translating to those wealthy enough to be able to afford to do it as a (badly paid) hobby.
Anne
| | | | Aurora Humarán (X)
Argentina
Local time: 22:49
English to Spanish
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TOPIC STARTER | "Just do it" is not enough (sorry, Nike :-))) | Aug 29, 2007 |
Anne Gillard-Groddeck wrote:
The best way to defend this (once) profession, I'm afraid, is simply to abandon it as it is obviously not a worthwhile investment.
This is the way to go:
http://business.guardian.co.uk/story/0,,2157974,00.html
You just need to work out the steps you need to take to get there (providing you're young enough).
Leave translating to those wealthy enough to be able to afford to do it as a (badly paid) hobby.
Anne
Just do it... where 'do' stands for: say no.
That is not enough, Anne. I have lectured on the international market for translators 6 times now. The first time was around 2003 (Rosario, Argentina) and the last one was a couple of months ago (Mendoza, Argentina).
The surprise? In all the cases, at least 90% of the audience did not have an idea of places like ProZ.com or translation sites where all these issues are discussed. That is why it is so important (for the benefit of ALL of us) to share tihis important information with other colleagues.
Did you read the part of the brainwashing process here? I bet people who run agencies with that approach, depend on their translators' ignorance of these facts. And I have proof of that ignorance based on my lectures, as I said before.
Again: just saying no is not enough. We also need to inform and, as it is obvious, things seem to have reached a situation which even deserves further action.
Au
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Aurora Humarán wrote:
The surprise? In all the cases, at least 90% of the audience did not have an idea of places like ProZ.com or translation sites where all these issues are discussed. That is why it is so important (for the benefit of ALL of us) to share tihis important information with other colleagues.
Did you read the part of the brainwashing process here? I bet people who run agencies with that approach, depend on their translators' ignorance of these facts.
Au
This applied to my '7 cents (of a peso)= (2 cents of a dollar) colleague'. When she mentioned the agency, I did a Blue Board search. Guess what? All the freelancers were delighted to have worked with said agency. Next, I clicked on each of the freelancers to see their rates. ALL of them charged over 10 cents (of a dollar). My friend realized she had been exploited due to her ignorance.
That's why I go along with Aurora: EDUCATE COLLEAGUES.
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| open ticket = open wound | Aug 29, 2007 |
Luis Arri Cibils wrote:
Price fixing? Difficult to say, impossible for me as I am not an Argentine lawyer. However, price fixing does not just mean negotiating and signing a "secret protocol" in a "dark, smoke-filled room."
I still have a longstanding open ticket related to this. An outsourcer contacts me via ProZ. I start negociating. Conversation comes to an end when he replies: 'We pay USD0.02 to Latin Americans'.
Isn't that
1st: discrimination?
2nd: price fixing? (I read the same happened to 6 people in this link http://www.proz.com/post/535352#535352)
We may disregard it, of course! But I wonder how many newbies consider that this is not an "excessive rate"...
mm
| | | | Marc P (X)
Local time: 02:49
German to English
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| Discrimination | Aug 29, 2007 |
Marcela Mestre wrote:
'We pay USD0.02 to Latin Americans'.
Isn't that
1st: discrimination?
No: buyers of products or services on a free market are entitled to exercise whatever prejudices they wish. Anti-discrimination legislation, where it does apply, concerns such things as the recruitment of salaried employees, or invitations by public authorities to tender.
2nd: price fixing?
Again, no: price-fixing involves an agreement between two or more competing parties. A single individual or company cannot be guilty of price-fixing simply by deciding what it is willing to pay for a product or service.
Discrimination can work both ways. I'm sympathetic to the problems of those working for the South American market, which are partly due to price distortion following the collapse of the Argentine economy. Price distortion isn't unknown in Europe, though. There is a substantial difference between the German and Italian markets, despite their being geographically close, sharing the same currency, and having broadly similar costs of living (arguably higher in Italy than in Germany). Rates which are considered "good" differ widely between the two countries, as do what are considered "reasonable" deadlines for payment, EU legislation notwithstanding. As a result, some colleagues in Italy state that they have simply stopped working for their domestic market altogether. The creation (or traditional existence) of an imbalance doesn't automatically mean that work will flow to the "cheaper" market.
Simply saying "I don't work for agencies" is also a form of discrimination, and it's perfectly legal. I'm surprised that more people don't try it. Not that I don't work for agencies - I do. But if they didn't pay my rates, I'd be quite happy to "discriminate" against them. In English, a "discriminating buyer" is a euphemism for someone who can afford to pay more. Logically, there should therefore also be "discriminating sellers". Discriminate away!
Marc
| | | | | Thanks for your reply | Aug 29, 2007 |
Many thanks, Marc, for your reply.
So, to make a long story short: educate + join forces...
mm
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