| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Low rates - Acting as a community Thread poster: Elena Robles Sanjuan
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| That's never happened to me, Astrid | May 26, 2008 |
- but then I wouldn't trust an agency that did that anyway, if the difference was too great. If they say X they're never going to pay 2X, simple as that.
The only time I had an agency (reluctantly) agree to pay what I stuck out for (about 20% more than they were willing to pay), they paid in full - and never contacted me again
| | | | | Rates can go UP, not down. Ask the doctor... | May 26, 2008 |
Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
It is not the rates that are decreasing - it is the number of translators who undersell themselves that is increasing.
Very well said, Viktoria. I could not agree more! In fact, I have recently had to increase my rates, for several reasons, and I have seen no decrease in workload. On the contrary, I seem to have more work than ever. The same clients as before are still sending me work, and still happily pay my higher rates, and new clients have not complained or questioned what I charge. If they do, then they get the answer: "I'm sorry, but that's the best rate I can give you for the quality of work that I offer".
Clients are businesses too. They understand that costs do go up, and that top quality goods and services are more expensive than poor quality. If they appreciate and need the quality that I offer, then they will not have a problem paying the price for it.
If rates are decreasing in some areas and with some clients, well then nobody is forcing anyone to do business with those clients or in those areas. The world is a big place, and there are plenty of clients and agencies out there who DO value quality, and ARE prepared to pay for it. Those who don't will end up with second-rate work and have to live with the consequences.
If other translators want to work just as much as I do, and are content to get paid far less for their efforts, then that's fine by me, too. That's their decision. I see no need to set my rates on the basis of the bargain-basement market, when clients are prepared to pay more.
And I'm not particularly interested in hearing about how badly the bargain-basement translators got hit by the client/agency who doesn't care about value and only shops for price, so I don't see the need for Proz to publish the rates at which jobs are actually done. The only reason I'd be vaguely interested in that, is to make sure that I am NOT charging below or at the average rate for my language pairs and areas, and that my rates remain above average.
In short, if a translator cannot command the going rate or better for a job, then either the customer doesn't understand the value of what we translators do, or the translator doesn't understand the value of what he does.
I'm always amazed at the short-sightedness of clients who shop around, looking for the lowest possible rate and then asking the translator to drop their prices even more. I always wonder if they'd follow the same tactic when looking for a doctor to treat their life-threatening disease or injury... Would they eagerly search for the cheapest possible doctor and hospital, ask for the poorest quality treatment, then ask them to leave out parts of that and drop their prices even lower? After all, if a brain surgeon has already successfully fixed dozens of brains, then it should be a piece of cake for him to do it again, right? So he can drop his rates even lower... That is exactly what the "Can you go cheaper?" clients and agencies are asking us to do. They think that because we've translated the same kind of document as theirs dozens of times before, we should now do it cheaper...
| | | | | There are more factors that just taking control | May 26, 2008 |
of your business. As we all know, there are combinations of languages and specialities that are paid better than others. And that is a fact. There are also countries (like Spain) where paying for quality is not the standard practice in many cases.
I hear that I should specialise, that I should respect my business if I want others to do the same, that I will inevitably have to deal with competition, that I should be marketing my services elsewhere. I do all that, I invest a lot of mo... See more of your business. As we all know, there are combinations of languages and specialities that are paid better than others. And that is a fact. There are also countries (like Spain) where paying for quality is not the standard practice in many cases.
I hear that I should specialise, that I should respect my business if I want others to do the same, that I will inevitably have to deal with competition, that I should be marketing my services elsewhere. I do all that, I invest a lot of money in my business to learn how to use different tools and have more to offer than others. I keep on trying to specialise in other areas. Yet, I find that today I share my areas of expertise and my pairs of language with far too many people to make any difference whatsoever if I say "no" to low rates.
I do say no to bad payers, to rubbish offers, to impossible deadlines and slavery ! And that doesn´t pay off. I can´t say I have hopes that the decent agency that will offer me what I deserve will definitely come my way. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Don't put all your eggs in one basket | May 26, 2008 |
Noe Tessmann wrote:
Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
I decide to offer low rates. We have control over our rates - not the other way around. If we all said no to low rates, all the outsourcers who shamelessly sell our services to their clients with 500% profit margins would go out of business - for everybody's benefit.
Hello Victoria,
nice to say, but when big multinational agencies send out mass e-mails to all the freelancers, that from now on they're only willing to pay 10 % less of the agreed rate. Who decides in this case. It's an eyewash to say that we're making the price. Sure you can stop working for them and look for other clients. The ones who do not depend on them will do so. But the others will do the same job just for less and next year the rates can decrease once again.
If nobody accepts everything would be fine, but this is not the case. How can I help does colleagues who are forced to accept such "offers" and by this mean help myself to continue to ask reasonable rates?
Regards
Noe
Another thing that has never happened to me... but anyway, let's take a look at this:
but when big multinational agencies send out mass e-mails to all the freelancers, that from now on they're only willing to pay 10 % less of the agreed rate. Who decides in this case.
What, all of them at the same time? Or just one of them? And you only work for that agency, no one else? OK, you have two choices:
write back and say that unfortunately you're unable to accept a rate cut. The cost of living has increased, and in fact you were just about to raise your rates - as a goodwill gesture, you're prepared to leave them as they stand for now.
Does that sound ridiculous? Bear in mind that if they're a major client they need you as much as you need them - unless they use you for your (low) price alone, they keep coming back to you because they like your work and your reliability. So you do have a say in the matter - ask any of the outsourcers who contribute in these forums and they'll tell you how hard it is to find good translators. (And of course if they're not a major client, you can afford to do without them anyway.)
You haven't got the courage to do this - or you tried and it didn't work? Swallow the rate cut for now and start expanding your client base. When agencies contact you, quote a higher rate. if they don't contact you, start contacting them - you could start with the ones based in your country with a good blue board rating. Or start looking for direct clients, if you prefer.
Specialise - don't say "I can do everything", say "I specialise in marketing / scientific / tourism / medical / culinary / business" or whatever. If you generalise, you're competing with dozens of other translators. If you specialise, you're competing with a handful - and not necessarily for a limited quantity of work, either.
Basically, be bold! Have the courage to assert that you do a good job and you deserve to be paid a good rate for it.
Seriously, I am as lazy as it gets when it comes to marketing my services but I have a very healthy income. If I can do it, so can anyone with the necessary basic skills.
[Edited at 2008-05-26 16:49]
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Ivana Søndergaard
United Kingdom
Local time: 10:56
Member (2008)
English to Danish
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| It's about how you sell yourself | May 26, 2008 |
"It's not about the price. It's about the product." That's what my boss told me when I started a sales job when I was a student. He was right then and he is still rigth now.
If you sell your services based on competitive prices, that will be the focus between you and the client.
However, if you sell your services as a quality product then the focus is on that. And then the price is not as important.
In fact, if it's too cheap, the client might think there ... See more "It's not about the price. It's about the product." That's what my boss told me when I started a sales job when I was a student. He was right then and he is still rigth now.
If you sell your services based on competitive prices, that will be the focus between you and the client.
However, if you sell your services as a quality product then the focus is on that. And then the price is not as important.
In fact, if it's too cheap, the client might think there is something wrong. Quality is not cheap. Simple psychology. It's about how the client perceives you. Are you cheap or expensive?
Stop talking about prices with your client. Talk quality, benefit, why you are so good, what you can do ofr the client, why good translation is important - your product. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Lia Fail (X) 
Spain
Local time: 11:56
Spanish to English
+ ...
| overcrowding | May 26, 2008 |
Elena Robles Sanjuan wrote:
There are also countries (like Spain) where paying for quality is not the standard practice in many cases.
...
I find that today I share my areas of expertise and my pairs of language with far too many people to make any difference whatsoever if I say "no" to low rates.
One of the problems in Spain - and the premium given to cheapness over quality only fuels it - is that there are many second raters in already overcrowded language combinations (example, ES-EN).
Non-natives in combinations where there's NO shortage of natives is the main example, but we could also include the blow-in natives who don't spend a cent on training themselves.
Two languages + computer/internet connection = translator?
The more I translate the more I know that I do NOT know!
| | | | | All I can say is... | May 26, 2008 |
Stuart Allsop wrote:
In short, if a translator cannot command the going rate or better for a job, then either the customer doesn't understand the value of what we translators do, or the translator doesn't understand the value of what he does.
...those are golden words. Thanks for resuming it for us so well.
| | | | PRen (X)
Canada
Local time: 06:56
French to English
+ ...
Kim Metzger wrote:
Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
I don't agree that rates are decreasing. It is rather the number of people who can translate but have no idea of how to run a profitable business that is increasing.
I think the number of people who CAN'T translate is also increasing, and KudoZ is partly responsible for encouraging this trend. KudoZ is attracting more and more unqualified people to try their hand at translation as a source of income. When novices can ask 60 questions per week, they are encouraged to take on jobs they aren't qualified to do at low prices, thinking pro translators will save their bacon.
Viktoria and Kim, you have both hit the nail squarely on the head - twice! I turn work down every day - every day, people - and my rates go up, not down.
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| Markets, and the multiplicity thereof | May 26, 2008 |
Y'know, the more threads like this I read, the more convinced I am that any discussion of "the translation market" is wrong-headed, and that even applies if you ignore the direct client versus agency side.
Just on this thread, it is obvious that experience varies widely and wildly.
If there were just one market, our experiences would all be broadly similar (I bet pretty much the same stuff happens to all of us when we visit a supermarket).
It seems to me that there are a... See more Y'know, the more threads like this I read, the more convinced I am that any discussion of "the translation market" is wrong-headed, and that even applies if you ignore the direct client versus agency side.
Just on this thread, it is obvious that experience varies widely and wildly.
If there were just one market, our experiences would all be broadly similar (I bet pretty much the same stuff happens to all of us when we visit a supermarket).
It seems to me that there are at least 2 translator/agency markets. The specialist end, where the translator does tend to set the terms, within reason, because supply (of such translators) is less than demand. There are examples of people in this category on this thread.
And there is a more "general" end (putting it politely), where translators are 10-a-penny, all equally as mediocre, giving the agency no incentive to discriminate between them other than on cost, and where if one translator refuses the terms offered, there are 2 more only too willing to take their place.
The trick, my friends, it seems to me, is to endeavour to ensure that you reach the first category. Specialise, be good at what you do, know your limits, deliver when you say you will, and all that stuff.
Obviously, notwithstanding my opening sentence, there is a market overall. But one wonders, to draw a parallel, whether Aston Martin, or Ferrari, or even BMW, are really that bothered about the trials and tribulations of Vauxhall, outside of general economic factors that affect us all. Or whether that bloke who cures ham for 50 years in a cave and sells it for a £1000 an ounce is really that bothered about Spam's problems....
.
[Edited at 2008-05-26 20:44] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | You are so right, novices are here to stay | May 26, 2008 |
Kim Metzger wrote:
I think the number of people who CAN'T translate is also increasing, and KudoZ is partly responsible for encouraging this trend. KudoZ is attracting more and more unqualified people to try their hand at translation as a source of income. When novices can ask 60 questions per week, they are encouraged to take on jobs they aren't qualified to do at low prices, thinking pro translators will save their bacon.
I thoroughtly agree with you on both of your points:
1) Novices are joining this trade in increasing numbers and competing with seasoned translators, thus dragging the price further and further down.
Good agencies know the cost of poor translation, but some don't (being novice themselves? However I know well established agencies who are acting as though they don't).
2) KudoZ needs some rule changes to be true to its professional standard.
Also, I would like to ask ProZ should ask credentials before permitting entry to full membership.
What are the criteria should be, we need to discuss.
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Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
It is not the rates that are decreasing - it is the number of translators who undersell themselves that is increasing.
This is absolutely correct. I am sharing a very recent "success story" about rates:
An European firm who contacted us via Proz.com. Let's say they offered us a rate of 70 ziriñonians (just invented the currency; I will keep the proportions). Good. Our base rate is 140 ziriñonians, and so I told the potential customer.
They are interested in our work, so after a while they offered 85 ziriñonians. We say that is just too low, and we explain them how unfair it would be if we charge other customers (their competitors) 140 ziriñonians and only 85 ziriñonians to them. And we explain a bit more about how we work, send them some screenshots of our termbase for them to see our experience in the field at hand etc. We make a clear statement that we cannot work anything under 120 ziriñonians. They thought about it for some hours.
After some more messages, and as they are interested in us, we agreed upon 120 ziriñonians. The end result, a 70-ziriñonian rate becomes a 120-ziriñonian rate, which is not perfect but is good enough for the effort. And we loved to start working for these people. They also liked our work. A win-win situation.
So Viktoria is right once again: we make the price, not the market!
[Edited at 2008-05-26 20:42]
| | | | | Corporate strategy for a small business | May 26, 2008 |
Stuart Allsop wrote:
In short, if a translator cannot command the going rate or better for a job, then either the customer doesn't understand the value of what we translators do, or the translator doesn't understand the value of what he does.
That's right! We should not be very different of what large companies (our end-customers) do with their products: Some will try to make the product cheaper no matter what, but the most successful one don't reduce the prices, and they even increase them! But they make sure their customers understand the quality, performance and expertise they are buying with the product, and how the product resolves problems that would otherwise mean costs.
If we manage to explain that our "product" resolves problems and improves their bottom line (by pleasing more consumers and users), our customers would easily accept much higher rates.
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Ivana Friis Wilson wrote:
Stop talking about prices with your client. Talk quality, benefit, why you are so good, what you can do ofr the client, why good translation is important - your product.
You are absolutely right. I think my previous posting only clumsily repeats this idea. Sorry Ivana!
| | | | Brandis (X)
Local time: 11:56
English to German
+ ...
| Introduce Proz gulden... | May 27, 2008 |
Halo all!
This might help standardize the rates, at the same time go for higher community average pricing. In my example - one proz Gulden = so many USD or so many Euro etc., this is a universal currency and the customer pays to proz.com wallet because paypal and moneybookers accept only global currencies, hence the system is secure as ever. Just an idea. I was indicating proz.com translators´community and not language pair based community. Best regards, Brandis
[Edited at... See more Halo all!
This might help standardize the rates, at the same time go for higher community average pricing. In my example - one proz Gulden = so many USD or so many Euro etc., this is a universal currency and the customer pays to proz.com wallet because paypal and moneybookers accept only global currencies, hence the system is secure as ever. Just an idea. I was indicating proz.com translators´community and not language pair based community. Best regards, Brandis
[Edited at 2008-05-27 08:14] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Competition at its best | May 27, 2008 |
Lia Fail wrote:
One of the problems in Spain - and the premium given to cheapness over quality only fuels it - is that there are many second raters in already overcrowded language combinations (example, ES-EN).
Non-natives in combinations where there's NO shortage of natives is the main example, but we could also include the blow-in natives who don't spend a cent on training themselves.
Two languages + computer/internet connection = translator?
The more I translate the more I know that I do NOT know!
There are far too many threads on whether an individual can have the ability to translate into a language that is not his or her mothertongue, so I won´t go there again.
I will just say that, if we build a business based on what we think we do best and clients like it and pay for it, then we´re not likely to get out of the way, so that others can do the same in our place.
I complain about how tough competition is. I don´t complain about fellow translators who are fending for themselves, just like I am.
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