| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | A BB for outsourcers' rates Thread poster: XXXphxxx (X)
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Nesrin 
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:15
English to Arabic
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| Not such a good idea to focus purely on rates | Apr 24, 2010 |
While money may be the biggest issue concerning translators, it's not the only one that should be used to judge an outsourcer. I really like Sheila's idea of having a BB (or the existing one!) that focuses on various categories (timely payment, good communication etc.)
For one thing, a "BB for outsourcers' rates" would become be the first port of call for any translator hunting for clients, which may become an annoyance to high-paying agencies once they find themselves bombarded by ... See more While money may be the biggest issue concerning translators, it's not the only one that should be used to judge an outsourcer. I really like Sheila's idea of having a BB (or the existing one!) that focuses on various categories (timely payment, good communication etc.)
For one thing, a "BB for outsourcers' rates" would become be the first port of call for any translator hunting for clients, which may become an annoyance to high-paying agencies once they find themselves bombarded by offers.
But more importantly, Krzysztof makes a very good point: While there may be isolated cases of translators embarking on jobs only to realise that the rates were too low, the vast majority of us will not contribute to that particular BB as we only take on jobs when we're happy with the rates.
Unless the purpose is to compile lists of clients who offer low rates, regardless of whether or not we've worked for them? In that case, we won't be able to judge them on anything else. And I don't think a BB is necessary for that - we could just have someone sitting there observing job offers and reporting clients who offer low rates. Or a ban on job offers with low rates. Or a simple line that says "Any rates lower than £XX/$XX per word is considered low".
[Edited at 2010-04-24 20:43 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Laurent KRAULAND (X)
France
Local time: 19:15
French to German
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| Already done... | Apr 24, 2010 |
Nesrin wrote:
Or a simple line that says "Any rates lower than £XX/$XX per word is considered low".
The ProZ job posting system already features such a line, as a warning for both outsourcers and translators.
| | | | | A BB for outsourcers' rates | Apr 24, 2010 |
Lisa Simpson wrote:
Looking at the number of threads on low rates I wonder about the possibility of a BB-style board for the rates that outsourcers are offering. It might discourage outsourcers from:
a) dictating the rates
b) offering outrageously low rates knowing that someone will eventually accept them.
Just a thought...
A g r e e
| | | | | A "blueboard" about low rates: a pretty odd idea... | Apr 24, 2010 |
Krzysztof Kajetanowicz wrote:
what the purpose of the Blue Board is?
I thought it was a tool intended to reduce risk. As in "not getting paid" risk. As in "unreasonable demands made after work has been delivered" risk. Things you do not know when you agree to do a project.
Not as in "pays too little". Has anyone ever accepted a project without knowing what the rate was?
I completely and utterly agree.
We cannot make a list of expensive car manufacturers. If we are ready to pay for the expensive car, we do. If we are not, we don't. Making a kind of BlueBoard for low rates sounds pretty absurd to me, sorry. If an outsourcer pays a ridiculous rate, you should not work for them. That's pretty much the end of the story in my opinion!
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| | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:15
Portuguese to English
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TOPIC STARTER | Allow the service providers to dictate their rates | Apr 25, 2010 |
My intention was not that we should use this 'BB for rates' as a way of ascertaining whether or not to work for a particular client, but to name and shame those offering absurdly low rates and put an end to this practice. Lawyers, accountants, doctors, plumbers, electricians etc etc do not have their clients telling THEM how much their budget is and what they are prepared to pay, THEY set their own rates. If we stopped the practice of outsourcers dictating rates and set an industry-standard we w... See more My intention was not that we should use this 'BB for rates' as a way of ascertaining whether or not to work for a particular client, but to name and shame those offering absurdly low rates and put an end to this practice. Lawyers, accountants, doctors, plumbers, electricians etc etc do not have their clients telling THEM how much their budget is and what they are prepared to pay, THEY set their own rates. If we stopped the practice of outsourcers dictating rates and set an industry-standard we would be acting like professionals and would be respected as such. I vote for a ban on rates being quoted at all in ProZ job offers. A job should invite offers without specifying what they are prepared to pay and soon enough outsourcers might start learning the difference between a quality translation paid at a fair wage and a shoddy job done for $ 0.03/word. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | A BB for outsourcers' rates | Apr 25, 2010 |
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:it
Krzysztof Kajetanowicz wrote:
what the purpose of the Blue Board is?
I thought it was a tool intended to reduce risk. As in "not getting paid" risk. As in "unreasonable demands made after work has been delivered" risk. Things you do not know when you agree to do a project.
Not as in "pays too little". Has anyone ever accepted a project without knowing what the rate was?
I completely and utterly agree.
We cannot make a list of expensive car manufacturers. If we are ready to pay for the expensive car, we do. If we are not, we don't. Making a kind of BlueBoard for low rates sounds pretty absurd to me, sorry. If an outsourcer pays a ridiculous rate, you should not work for them. That's pretty much the end of the story in my opinion!
I am sorry Tomás, but this time I can not agree with your assessment. The list of expensive car manufacturers do not need to be done, because it has been already done and is publicly available.
You may read it in the buying and selling vehicles newspapers section and in the many specialised car reviews. Not only that, but in professional journals you will find comparative tables ordered by price segments, by qualities, etc. And no, we do not go for an expensive car if we want to pay for it. We inform us before about benefits, prices, other similar vehicles, etc.
In contrast, translation agencies usually do not publish his prices, neither are they publicly available and less published in comparative tables... I think there is some difference. By the way, I forgot to say: the BB do not should to be only for low rates, but for all type of rates. I think that this would clarify the market a lot.
[Editado a las 2010-04-25 16:00 GMT]
| | | | | Agree again. | Apr 25, 2010 |
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
Krzysztof Kajetanowicz wrote:
what the purpose of the Blue Board is?
I thought it was a tool intended to reduce risk. As in "not getting paid" risk. As in "unreasonable demands made after work has been delivered" risk. Things you do not know when you agree to do a project.
Not as in "pays too little". Has anyone ever accepted a project without knowing what the rate was?
I completely and utterly agree.
We cannot make a list of expensive car manufacturers. If we are ready to pay for the expensive car, we do. If we are not, we don't. Making a kind of BlueBoard for low rates sounds pretty absurd to me, sorry. If an outsourcer pays a ridiculous rate, you should not work for them. That's pretty much the end of the story in my opinion!
I already said it above in another post. But this seems to be a never ending and round and round thread, so I thought I should reiterate my point of view.
I agree with Tomas. If the rate offered is too low, you don`t take the job. If you know beforehand the rate offered , you just don`t even apply. If the rate is not published, then you apply and make up your mind before starting the job or when doing the PO and discussing and agreeing on rates with the client. Furthermore, if the rate the agency usually pays is too low and you stated your rates in your application without knowing that, you won`t even be selected. So, what`s all this fuss about?
The changes Proz has been doing in the job posting systems go in the direction most posters here suggest: letting freeelances to dictate their own rate.
Plumbers, doctos, electricians and other, Lisa, give you a budget, an estimated price before starting the job. You may take it or try another profesional. Of course, you may take a cheaper one and end up with broken pipes or an electrical shock soon afterwards. It`s your right and your own risk. Same applies here.
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Ronald van der Linden (X)
Mexico
Local time: 12:15
German to Dutch
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| adjust settings to avoid "spam" job offers | Apr 25, 2010 |
In order to avoid receiving unwanted job offers (i.e. due to low rates), you can adjust this under your e-mail settings: go to job settings, and follow instructions.
Then for job offers from LSP you are not interested in, you can filter these to block them. Same area, but select tab "poster flags and filters".
Not so long ago, I also saw an option you could select to not receive job offers without quotes, but I failed to find this particular option.
Adding... See more In order to avoid receiving unwanted job offers (i.e. due to low rates), you can adjust this under your e-mail settings: go to job settings, and follow instructions.
Then for job offers from LSP you are not interested in, you can filter these to block them. Same area, but select tab "poster flags and filters".
Not so long ago, I also saw an option you could select to not receive job offers without quotes, but I failed to find this particular option.
Adding an additional registration for agencies for outsourcers' rates, is not the solution, it will in fact hurt fees even more, as soon as agencies discover general fees of their competition. ▲ Collapse
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:15
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | You cannot 'avoid' low rates | Apr 26, 2010 |
My aim is not to find a way of avoiding low rates by simply not seeing them. I've got pretty good at ignoring job offers at low rates over the years However, the mere fact that they are out there drags the industry down. The aim is to change the mentality, to change the idea that it is:
a) okay to offer (or accept) these kinds of rates.
b) acceptable to dictate rates to us, the service providers. We should look at the ... See more My aim is not to find a way of avoiding low rates by simply not seeing them. I've got pretty good at ignoring job offers at low rates over the years However, the mere fact that they are out there drags the industry down. The aim is to change the mentality, to change the idea that it is:
a) okay to offer (or accept) these kinds of rates.
b) acceptable to dictate rates to us, the service providers. We should look at the job and quote on it - simple. Why are we allowing clients who are not translators and who do not have a clue about the expertise required and time taken to produce a polished translation to dictate our rates to us? THAT is what we should all be trying to put a stop to.
[Edited at 2010-04-26 12:27 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Strongly opposed! | Apr 26, 2010 |
Nesrin wrote:
For one thing, a "BB for outsourcers' rates" would become be the first port of call for any translator hunting for clients, which may become an annoyance to high-paying agencies once they find themselves bombarded by offers.
[Edited at 2010-04-24 20:43 GMT]
I second this... either you get a "pays low rates" from someone who agreed to that rate beforehand and don't receive quotes anymore from translators to whom you'd have happily paid a higher rate, or you get "pays high rates" and as a long-term result end up paying more to translators who at the same time sell their very same services to your competitor for less (simply because that competitor pays less, but not too little), so that you end up pricing yourself out of the market.
Perhaps (perhaps!!) you weed out the lower paying agencies with such a BB, but don't forget that at the same time you also make things more difficult for the higher paying agencies as well.
| | | | Laurent KRAULAND (X)
France
Local time: 19:15
French to German
+ ...
| Philosophical thought | Apr 26, 2010 |
Susan van den Ende wrote:
Perhaps (perhaps!!) you weed out the lower paying agencies with such a BB, but don't forget that at the same time you also make things more difficult for the higher paying agencies as well.
Higher paying agencies can only be identified as such when compared to rock-bottom raters.
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| Not so sure... | Apr 26, 2010 |
Laurent KRAULAND wrote:
Higher paying agencies can only be identified as such when compared to rock-bottom raters.
Not so sure... if 0,12 p/w is your average rate, a 0,13 p/w agency is a higher paying agency already, right?
And how about payment per hour / per fuss? A 0,10 p/w agency that always sends you properly prepped files in your field with decent TMs and that adequately handles unfounded complaint (rather than hitting the Forward button to have you deal with it) may actually pay you more per hour than their colleagues who pay 0,12 but don't know Swedish from Norwegian or legal from marketing and keep on wasting your time with scans and crappy PDFs.
| | | | | A little information in advance | Apr 28, 2010 |
Pablo Bouvier wrote:
I am sorry Tomás, but this time I can not agree with your assessment. The list of expensive car manufacturers do not need to be done, because it has been already done and is publicly available.
I tend to agree with Pablo on this point. Everyone is aware that if you walk into a BMW dealership and buy a car, you're going to be walking out with a much lighter wallet (or heavier loan) than if you had just walked into a Hyundai dealership - and this despite the fact that the customer and dealer will still negotiate over price.
Both the customer who buys a BMW and the customer who buys a Hyundai may end up extremely satisfied with their purchases, but they both know in advance about the difference in prices. It would be nice if we had some information in advance as well.
I don't know the best way to handle this issue (some people don't even consider it an issue, I suppose). I even proposed my own potential "reporting method" on another thread and was trying to test run a site - www.transrates.webs.com - but I guess not too many people went to look. But I know that
1) I don't like to waste my time considering collaboration (and spending the time on eMail correspondence) if I don't have a general idea of the remuneration that will be provided
2) I don't consider collaborations with agencies in certain parts of the world - but sheerly out of bias, because so many of their fellow countrymen offer non-competitive rates. However, if more information were available on their own payment levels, this could prevent unwarranted bias in future.
I realize that remuneration for translation is a very individual thing - determined by the individual translator and individual source/outsourcer/agency based on the individual project and its individual paramters.
But I did want to say that as someone who occasionally looks for new projects and new collaborative efforts, it is nice to have as much information as possible in advance.
| | | | | Market differences? | Apr 28, 2010 |
I think there is another aspect to be considered.
The situation is not only about "outrageously low rates", but also about the context of those outrageously low rates. Unfortunately, what is low in a Western European country (let's say EUR 0.04/sw) is double of what a certain category of translators is paid BY LAW in some other country, like Romania. Sworn translators are paid around RON 25 for a standard page (approx. 1800-2000 characters/page), which means ~ EUR 0.02/word, BY LAW.... See more I think there is another aspect to be considered.
The situation is not only about "outrageously low rates", but also about the context of those outrageously low rates. Unfortunately, what is low in a Western European country (let's say EUR 0.04/sw) is double of what a certain category of translators is paid BY LAW in some other country, like Romania. Sworn translators are paid around RON 25 for a standard page (approx. 1800-2000 characters/page), which means ~ EUR 0.02/word, BY LAW. And you can't turn them down more than twice a year, because they can cancel your license (as stipulated by law!).
The situation is much worse on the actual market, full of translation agencies offering half the regulated price which is already low (some of them even complain about translators trying to set somewhat normal rates, and it is not rare for such translators to get insulting reply letters!).
Regrettably, this disparity leads to dumping, and local (Romanian) translators accept the 0.04 prices from foreign agencies because they can actually make very good living on that money. On the other hand, for European agencies/translators, the place of performance is the foreign agency's office as the beneficiary's office, so rates should also follow standards applicable in that place...
I've no idea how this weird situation can be improved (especially when some translators don't even want improvement!). ▲ Collapse
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