| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5] | "mankind" determined a gender-specific word Thread poster: finnword1
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| Re: Schiller | Mar 30, 2018 |
Susan Welsh wrote:
Alle Menschen und Frauen werden Brüder und Schwestern?
Hm, I never thought about that, that's interesting.
Schiller actually wrote "Alle Menschen werden Brüder". Translated literally from modern German, that means "All people become brothers" (Mann = man, Frau = woman, Mensch = people [or human, as in "human rights"]).
Your example suggests that using "Mensch" to refer to all people might be related to using "mankind" to refer to all people. I don't know if that is the case or not. If someone complains, I'll listen to what they have to say and then try to use logic, common sense and good manners to decide what I should do in the future ...
Schiller is clearly using "people" ("Menschen") to refer exclusively to men here. Not only do they become"brothers", but some of those bros pick up some hot chicks ("holde Weib[er]") later in the poem.
I really don't see any problem using an ambiguously exclusive/inclusive "man" for a translation in this context. I suppose a purist might see it as PC waffling, because the original actually excludes women from being people instead of excluding them from being men, but a little poetic license seems permissible.
P.S. to Jean: I'm pretty sure we actually agree, I just don't write very well. (If you place a slip of paper over the "illiterate PC fanatic" paragraph, what I was actually trying to say might become clearer.)
P.P.S. to Thomas: I'm not ignoring you, but I don't know how to respond without getting my post deleted.
P.P.P.S. to everyone else: Sorry for monopolizing your time. I promise not to post anything else here.
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On topic:
There seems to be a UK/US divide on the use of mankind which is causing a lot of talking at cross-purposes here. As a Brit, I've never thought twice about using mankind to mean everyone (I cannot imagine ever using it to mean only men). So the potential level of offence and need to avoid this particular word would seem to be continent-specific.
Off topic:
I'm surprised to see so much talk about "equality" rather than "equal rights and opportunitie... See more On topic:
There seems to be a UK/US divide on the use of mankind which is causing a lot of talking at cross-purposes here. As a Brit, I've never thought twice about using mankind to mean everyone (I cannot imagine ever using it to mean only men). So the potential level of offence and need to avoid this particular word would seem to be continent-specific.
Off topic:
I'm surprised to see so much talk about "equality" rather than "equal rights and opportunities". Women and men aren't equal, they're different. Which is why women have had to fight for equal rights and opportunities.
"Man up":
This recent invention certainly perpetuates a sexist stereotype but... it just so works. Only last week, I thought briefly about using "toughen up" instead in one of the cabinet office's press releases but it just read so much better as "the prime minister manned up and sacked all the bitches in the house". It's all about feel. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:59
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Oh Man, this is ridiculous.
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Susan Welsh wrote:
Alle Menschen und Frauen werden Brüder und Schwestern?
Great stuff, Susan. Beethoven would have to compose a new tune, though.
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Susan Welsh 
United States
Local time: 07:59
Russian to English
+ ...
Chris S wrote:
There seems to be a UK/US divide on the use of mankind which is causing a lot of talking at cross-purposes here. As a Brit, I've never thought twice about using mankind to mean everyone (I cannot imagine ever using it to mean only men). So the potential level of offence and need to avoid this particular word would seem to be continent-specific.
Just to set things straight: What UK/US divide? I don't see that at all here. Many (most?) of the posters are neither Brits nor Yanks. To revise what you wrote: "As a Yank, I've never thought twice about using mankind to mean everyone (I cannot imagine ever using it to mean only men)." In case you're confused, what I wrote about Schiller/Beethoven was intended as irony (as Jenny points out, it would indeed to be hard to sing the Ode to Joy with these words).
| | | | The Misha
Local time: 07:59
Russian to English
+ ...
| What US/UK divide +1 | Mar 30, 2018 |
There is no divide, of course. It's just that there are normal, adequate folks on both sides of the political spectrum here who have better things to do with themselves than split hairs over words (and those constitute the majority) and a few of those... well, who are not. That quite a few of them are in academia and/or tend to live on the coasts is purely coincidental:) To their (dis)credit though, they somehow manage to fool the rest of you folks out there:)
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