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ФЕДЕРАЛЬНОЕ ГОСУДАРСТВЕННОЕ ОБРАЗОВАТЕЛЬНОЕ УЧРЕЖДЕНИЕ ВЫСШЕГО ПРОФЕССИОНАЛЬНОГ

Glossary entry

Russian term or phrase:

праведное смешается с грешным

English translation:

combines righteousness with sin

Added to glossary by Rachel Douglas
Jul 22, 2009 20:35
14 yrs ago
Russian term

праведное смешается с грешным (Второе послание Павла к иудеям)

Russian to English Science Religion scientific writing
..., то есть праведное смешается с грешным (Второе послание Павла к иудеям).

Вот такую цитату вставил автор в свою научную статью. Помогите, пожалуйста, найти соответствие на английском.
Proposed translations (English)
2 +1 combines righteousness with sin
5 +1 Righteous will be mixed with wicked
4 (and) the righteousness will be tainted with sin
4 7 And delivered just Lot vexed with the filthy conversation of the wiked;
3 the just will fall in with the wicked
3 righteousness is mingled with sin/unrighteousness
2 just will be mixed up with sinful
Change log

Jul 27, 2009 09:35: Rachel Douglas Created KOG entry

Discussion

Judith Hehir Jul 26, 2009:
Not about individuals I don't think this is about people so much as it is about the abstract, i.e., "righteousness" and "unrighteousness/sin". These are not to be blended/mixed/intermingled. The concept is simple and Biblically sound. As Rachel pointed out, the translation is difficult only because the author blew it with the source.
a05 Jul 26, 2009:
Так что в переводе-то написать в конечном итоге? Пора подводить итог с учетом всех изысканий. Я бы написал так:
<br><br>
<цитата>
<br><br>
... i.e. the righteous will blend/be combined/mingle/mix with the sinful (Paul's Second Epistle to Hebrews<sup>1</sup>)
<br><br>
с подстрочным:
<br><br>
<sup>1</sup> See 2 Co. 5:21 (Translator's note).
<br><br>
<конец цитаты>
<br><br>
Из 4 глаголов надо, разумеется, оставить один -- вот в этом и проявить свободу выбора.
Rachel Douglas Jul 26, 2009:
2Michael The asker is looking for a quotation from St. Paul about combining sin and righteousness. Finding one is not a "matter of stylistic taste." Either he finds a quotation from St. Paul (as both Judith and I have been attempting to help do, with the constraint that the source cited by his author doesn't exist), or he'll formulate something about combining sin and righteousness, without its being a quotation. Knowing from acquaintance here, that the asker is an intelligent translator who regularly handles complex scientific texts, I have not the slightest doubt about his ability to follow what's being said in this discussion. Not everybody, however, knows that "2 Co. 5:21", as written in the source he found, denotes Paul's 2nd Epistle to the Corinthians, and is one of the passages cited earlier in the discussion. If these details don't interest you, please feel no obligation to read them.
Michael Korovkin Jul 26, 2009:
Первое послание Лавра прохиндеям Thou shalt not get carried away, for if thou dost so, thou riskest to perdre thy Perspective! No, seriously, you guys are great, and most of your suggestions are just fine, though they create an embarassment of choice for the asker and thus slightly obfuscate the matter, which, after everything's is said and done is, here, but a matter of stylistic taste.
Rachel Douglas Jul 26, 2009:
2 Co. 5:21 As far as I can see from the file you gave the link to, the quotation "God says, you shall be clothed..." is from Felix Jeyareuben, interpreting the various Bible verses.

If you are still looking for a quotation from St. Paul, note that near the bottom of the second page of that file, one of the verses Felix J. uses in his argument is the already-mentioned II Corinthians 5:21 (that is, Verse 21 of Chapter 5 of Paul's Second Epistle to the Corinthians), about how sin had to be brought in, in order for righteousness to be achieved: "For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." It's a slightly different translation, but the same verse as cited before in the KJV: "For He hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him."
Judith Hehir Jul 26, 2009:
Mixtures Wool and Linen? That is definitely a reference to the mixtures forbidden in the book of Deuteronomy and alluded to in 2 Cor 6:14ff.
Nik-On/Off (asker) Jul 26, 2009:
Here is what I've found God says, you shall be clothed with righteousness and sin shall not come upon you.<br>http://www.churchsw.org/system/files/Secret of Wool and Line...
Judith Hehir Jul 23, 2009:
Thank you, Rachel Nice resources
Rachel Douglas Jul 23, 2009:
2a05 I'm not an expert, but I can recommend this reference source: http://www.blueletterbible.org/index.cfm (The Blue Letter Bible). They have a dozen English translations of the Bible, but also a lot of other reference tools. The search function allows for finding individual English words, or combinations of them, anywhere in the King James Version. In addition, next to every biblical verse, there's a set of buttons including "C" for "concordance," which provides the Hebrew (Old Testament) or Greek (New Testament), with the verse completely parsed as to the parts of speech. The BLB doesn't include the Bible in other languages, but it's easy to compare the Russian manually, using this Russian Bible site, which has an easy look-up function by verse: http://www.russianbible.net/.
a05 Jul 23, 2009:
Rachel, I can only admire your knowledge and wish I can take your advice any time I may need to address any issue regarding the Scriptures. I am sure the author in question does not care about accuracy and takes his quotes from memory. Anyway, it is curious to see from the context if his meaning is close to the biblical in any way.
Rachel Douglas Jul 23, 2009:
hamartia / dikaiosyne 2A05. I think in yesterday's discussion we weren't taking too much for granted, chiefly because the author has evidently cited a book that is not found in the Bible ("2nd Epistle to the Hebrews"). We were trying to guess where the passage might come from.
We know we're supposed to be looking for a quotation from St. Paul. If the Russian (whatever version) contains грех (грешное) and праведность (праведное), it's a pretty strong guess that the Greek has some forms of hamartia and dikaiosyne, which are typically "sin" and "righteousness" in the English KJV. With "unrighteousness", which Judith brought up implicitly by mentioning II Cor 6:14, that's Greek "anomia" - Russian "беззаконие". Also, in Rom 6:13, where the English KJV has "unrighteousness" again, and right next to "sin," they are "adikia"/"hamartia", respectively, and Russian is "неправда"/"грех".
a05 Jul 23, 2009:
Gospel translation I mean translation from Greek/Aramaic not from English, of course.
a05 Jul 23, 2009:
ибо какое общение праведности с беззаконием we took it for granted that one needs to be based on the synodal translation. The author may have used another (his own?) translation.

Nik-On/Off: It is clearly the author's issue but such is the translator's destiny -- to address any author's inconsistencies.
Nik-On/Off (asker) Jul 23, 2009:
Я ничего не путаю. Именно так и написано
Rachel Douglas Jul 22, 2009:
righteousness/unrighteousness II Corinthians 6:14, which Judith cites for "what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness" (KJV) goes as follows in the Russian Bible: "ибо какое общение праведности с беззаконием".
SveR (X) Jul 22, 2009:
Дайте больше контекста! Думаю, что нам всем хочется посмотреть контекст этой фразы, чтобы понять, о чём же всё-таки идёт речь.
Judith Hehir Jul 22, 2009:
Parable of the wheat and the tares, perhaps? That would be in one of the gospels.
Judith Hehir Jul 22, 2009:
Good point, Rachel. Only one such epistle... and the scholars aren't in agreement as to who authored it.
Rachel Douglas Jul 22, 2009:
Цитата ли? И если цитата, то откуда? Насколько я знаю, в Новом завете есть только одно послание Павла к иудеям.

А во втором послании Коринфиням есть следующое сложное понятие:
"Ибо не знавшего греха Он сделал для нас [жертвою за] грех, чтобы мы в Нем сделались праведными пред Богом." - KJV: "For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."
Alexander Ryshow Jul 22, 2009:
и то, авторство Послания к евреям - извечный предмет дискуссий
a05 Jul 22, 2009:
есть "Послание к евреям" и оно только одно Таких слов там нет. И вообще эта цитата в гугле выпадает только в Вашем вопросе.
SveR (X) Jul 22, 2009:
Вообще-то не существует никакого второго послания Павла к иудеям. Вы ничего не путаете?

Proposed translations

+1
31 mins
Selected

combines righteousness with sin

In case your author is summarizing II Corinthians 5:21 (see above, in discussion), he could be saying that Paul (somewhere) "combines righteousness with sin," or "links righteousness closely with sin."

Here are the only verses in the New Testament, in which "sin" and "righteousness" occur together in the same verse. The last one, which is the one I'm talking about, is the only one which seems to match what your author says, conceptually.

Jhn 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

1Cr 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak [this] to your shame.

2Cr 5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Peer comment(s):
agree linguist09 (X)
1 hr
Thank you.
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "I would like to thank everyone participated in the discussion and tried to help me."
23 mins

just will be mixed up with sinful

как вариант

я тоже погуглила и указанного Вашим автором послания не нашла.
Something went wrong...
+1
25 mins

Righteous will be mixed with wicked

Но только такой фразы в Библии нет. И теологически эта идея противоречит Библейской истине.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 34 mins (2009-07-22 21:09:52 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Или "Righteousness will be mixed with wickedness"
Peer comment(s):
agree Alexandra Taggart : Фраза та, да не совсем.Подозреваю,что Павла с Петром не греки попутали.
1 day 22 mins
Something went wrong...
36 mins

the just will fall in with the wicked

fall in - in the sense "встанет в один ряд", "смешается"
Something went wrong...
54 mins

(and) the righteousness will be tainted with sin

Yeah, yeah, yeah, praise Jeeesus, our Loid, amen!
Something went wrong...
1 hr

righteousness is mingled with sin/unrighteousness

Perhaps an allusion to the mixtures forbidden first in the OT and later in 2 Corinthians 6:14ff.
Something went wrong...
23 hrs

7 And delivered just Lot vexed with the filthy conversation of the wiked;

That is from "The Second Epistle General of Peter, not Paul.2Peter,2,3:
6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gommorha into ashes condemned them with an overthrowmaking them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
7 And delivered just Lot vexed with the filthy conversation of the wiked;
8 For that righterous man dwelling among them in seeng and hearing vexes his righterous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day22 mins (2009-07-23 20:57:35 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

http://scripturetext.com/2_peter/2-7.htm

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day29 mins (2009-07-23 21:05:24 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

One of interpretations of "vexed" is "opressed" which I don't find correct, see yourself:http://www.answers.com/topic/vex
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