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企業心臟的偵測器
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Glossary entry

Chinese term or phrase:

利潤

English translation:

return, earnings, proft (all correct, but not income)

Added to glossary by Roddy Stegemann
Aug 5, 2006 05:11
18 yrs ago
Chinese term

利潤

Chinese to English Bus/Financial Management
你的花費必須低於你賺得的利潤

I understand 利潤 to be profits. In this case, it seems that 利潤 should be income?
Proposed translations (English)
4 return, earnings, proft (all correct, but not income)
3 +2 earnings

Discussion

Roddy Stegemann Aug 6, 2006:
Wenjer - You are confusing home economics with business economics. The word earnings and income are synonymous when applied to households, but they are very different when applied to businesses! Once again, (earnings | profit| return) = income - expense.
Wenjer Leuschel (X) Aug 6, 2006:
So, it's loosely said, "Spend less than what you earn." It won't be return.
anastasia t (X) (asker) Aug 6, 2006:
sorry, Engish, loose
anastasia t (X) (asker) Aug 6, 2006:
Guess what guys? Since the Chinese version was translated from an English version, I referred back to the ENglish version and was surprised that the original English version actually employs a very lose term - "spend less than what you make".
Wenjer Leuschel (X) Aug 6, 2006:
Just think of the necessity of having an accounting system with "Balance and Gain & Loss." Without such a system, it wouldn't be easy to figure out how efficient an enterprise is. And think, in which of those sheets we can figure out income and profit.
Wenjer Leuschel (X) Aug 6, 2006:
In Hamo's suggestion there are such formulae which just don't serve right to explain the sense of the Chinese sentence. And that should have clarified your doubts? I am very surpirsed, Anastasia.
Wenjer Leuschel (X) Aug 6, 2006:
On the other hand, you can say, "Your expenses must be less than your income." Even if it is not really what it shall mean, people understand it as "Your expenses must be less than your earnings." So, who got the right sense first?
Wenjer Leuschel (X) Aug 6, 2006:
@anastasia: Just take "Your expenses must be less than your return" and "Your expenses must be less than your earnings" and ask for vote, you will see what comes out. Return is just wrong in this context.
Roddy Stegemann Aug 6, 2006:
One quick question: Are you sure that Ross, Westerfield, and Jaffes wrote "dollars returns" and not dollar returns? I have never heard the former expression but among East Asians, and the names Ross, Westerfield and Jaffes do not appear very Asian.
Roddy Stegemann Aug 6, 2006:
I am flattered that you would call me a her, as I have always believed that gender is subordinate to the individual.
anastasia t (X) (asker) Aug 6, 2006:
Returns can indeed be interpreted in a broad sense, on an investment level as Wenjer pointed out, or as in income - expense as Hamo highlighted. But it is a moot point. I am more concerned with is the phrase "expenses must be less than profits/earnings" sound? And it is Hamo who has addressed my concerns, hence the points to him/her. Though taking a different view, Wenjer has somehow addressed my concerns too in the notes above. But Hamo got it first.
anastasia t (X) (asker) Aug 6, 2006:
Hamo, neither of us is wrong about returns. "Corporate Finance" by Ross, Westerfield, and Jaffes (4th edition) defines returns in terms of "dollars returns" and "percentage returns".
Wenjer, if I get out of my accounting silo, I am able to see your point. But believe me, if you were to post this in an accounting forum, the ppl there will vote for "expenses must be less than income". If I am to delve into it, it could be a chapter of a book... ...
Thanks anyway for the stimulating discussion!
Wenjer Leuschel (X) Aug 6, 2006:
Correction: In business, you just don't simply regard (income - expense) as return!
Wenjer Leuschel (X) Aug 6, 2006:
I won't argue anymore. But believe me, having 利潤 or 賺得的利潤 translated as "return" is just wrong, not matter how broad or narrow you understand "return." In business, you just don't regard (income - expense) as return!
Wenjer Leuschel (X) Aug 6, 2006:
To Hamo: Just look at the quasi-mathematical formulae you put into your suggestion and you will see the mistake. You can never measure a firm's operating efficiency with ((income/expense) - 1 > 0)!
Wenjer Leuschel (X) Aug 6, 2006:
To Anastasia: When I was talking about investment with spending up front. It is another level. Return has to be understood in that level. Don't mix up two levels. Income doesn't equal to earnings. That's the point to your original question.
Roddy Stegemann Aug 6, 2006:
Anastasia - Return and rate (a kind of ratio usually reserved for time, but not always) of return are not the same. Return on investment (ROI) is the ratio of return (profit) to investment. Many times people say return when they mean rate of return.
Roddy Stegemann Aug 6, 2006:
Anastasia - You must be clear what you mean by investment. In most cases the term investment refers to the entire amount spent on a particular project. This amount is typically borrowed, but it can also be paid for out of savings (retained earnings).
anastasia t (X) (asker) Aug 6, 2006:
I have doubts on "returns" from a perspective different from that of Wenjer. When we talk about "returns", we are usually talking about percentages or ratios, but here, I think it is in terms of absolute dollar amounts.
Roddy Stegemann Aug 6, 2006:
Wenjer - Anastasia was asking whether the term 利潤 was properly used. Simply, it is more common to compare income with expense, than it is to compare profits with expense unless, of course, the efficiency of the firm is in question.
anastasia t (X) (asker) Aug 6, 2006:
To Wenjer: Sure, 花費 has more to do with expenses than investments. But in order to invest, you have to spend up front. When a company runs, you are not advised to spend more than (income - expense). Or else, your investment get lost. Or else, your investment gets lost. In other words, you must control your spending in terms of "earnings," not in terms of "income."
Exactly what I was saying in my suggestion.

This argument is right, but summarily, it means that "investments must be less than earnings". But 花費 means expenses. "investments must be less than earnings" is right. "expenses must be less than earnings" makes no sense.
Roddy Stegemann Aug 6, 2006:
Anastasia - Hamo did not mistake the use of the word return; rather, Wenjer has employed the term in its narrowest of senses: "earnings on investment" or "profit from investment". Once again, at some point these three words become interchangeable.
Wenjer Leuschel (X) Aug 6, 2006:
Can you understand why peers agree with me and not with Hamo? You see, I don't mind the points. But what is right is right and what is wrong is wrong. It is not a mistake of the author. The text is all right. 賺得的利潤 is clear for earnings (profit earned).
anastasia t (X) (asker) Aug 6, 2006:
No no, I think Hamo has already clarified it for us
"The terms earnings and profits are synonymous in a business context, but I do not believe that you are looking for another way to say profits.

Your doubt about the author's understanding of the difference become income and profits is well founded, as one usually compares income with expense in order to determine a firm's profit."

He/she has addressed the crux of my question.
Wenjer Leuschel (X) Aug 6, 2006:
In short, you have made a wrong pick. And I suggest you to call on the moderator to correct the mistake.
anastasia t (X) (asker) Aug 6, 2006:
Yes, I have doubt on it as well. That's why you'll notice I didn't mention it in my first note above.
Wenjer Leuschel (X) Aug 6, 2006:
I was just to point out that Hamo mistook "return." Return is to be understood in a broader context of investment, not just in the context of "income vs. earnings/profit."
anastasia t (X) (asker) Aug 6, 2006:
Wenjer, if we go on, this will become an accounting forum. Thank you very much for your suggestion and help. Let me just say that I will translate it as earnings, but I will add a translation note.
Wenjer Leuschel (X) Aug 6, 2006:
In other words, you must control your spending in terms of "earnings," not in terms of "income." Exactly what I was saying in my suggestion.
Wenjer Leuschel (X) Aug 6, 2006:
Or else, your investment gets lost.
Wenjer Leuschel (X) Aug 6, 2006:
Sure, 花費 has more to do with expenses than investments. But in order to invest, you have to spend up front. When a company runs, you are not advised to spend more than (income - expense). Or else, your investment get lost.
Wenjer Leuschel (X) Aug 6, 2006:
To your last question: Different businesses have different cost structure. The profit margin doesn't necessary be more than 50% to survive. You need to think of "income" in terms of "investment." Just think of how to make sure of "gain and loss."
anastasia t (X) (asker) Aug 6, 2006:
I think I now understand where you are coming from. But the word 花費 has more to do with expenses rather than investments.
Wenjer Leuschel (X) Aug 6, 2006:
If you believe that "income - expense = profit," you just look away from the investment and that would bring your company into a great danger. Believe me!
anastasia t (X) (asker) Aug 6, 2006:
You are telling me that if the cost of the firm is $5, the company MUST sell at more than $10 in order to make a profit of more than $5? You are telling me that the margin for all firms must be more than 50% in order to stay alive?
Wenjer Leuschel (X) Aug 6, 2006:
"As long as profit is positive, why should we be bothered whether spending is less than profit or not?" If you don't bother to earn more than you spend, your company goes bankrupt in a sure way!
anastasia t (X) (asker) Aug 6, 2006:
Income - Spending/Expenses = Profit/Earnings
As long as profit is positive, why should we be bothered whether spending is less than profit or not? On the other hand, spending must be less than income so that you'll earn profits.

I'm not awarding the points to Hamo because I prefer "return" to "profit" or "earnings", but because he/she confirms my suspicion above.
Wenjer Leuschel (X) Aug 6, 2006:
It is well known that ROI (return on investment) is ((income - expense)/investment), not ((income - expense)/expense). Think of the accounting system with "Balance and Gain & Loss," not just "Expense & Income," then you will see what I am talking about.
Wenjer Leuschel (X) Aug 6, 2006:
If the translation of the sentence in question is to be correct, think about the questions I asked above.
Wenjer Leuschel (X) Aug 6, 2006:
Is there anything wrong to say that "your spending must be less than your earnings" or that "your spending must be less than the profit you earn"? Isn't it funny to say that "your expense must be less than your return"?

Proposed translations

2 hrs
Selected

return, earnings, proft (all correct, but not income)

The terms earnings and profits are synonymous in a business context, but I do not believe that you are looking for another way to say profits.

Your doubt about the author's understanding of the difference become income and profits is well founded, as one usually compares income with expense in order to determine a firm's profit.

income - expense = profit
If income - expense > 0,
then profit > 0
and income > expense.

This is not to say that one does not compare profit with expense. Consider the following:

profit/expense
= (income - expense)/expense
= (income/expense) - 1

If income > expense,
then (income/expense) - 1 > 0

The value of this number would be the company's return (profit, earnings) on expenditure, which is a measure of the firm's operating efficiency.

Recommendation: Take a careful look at the context in which this passage appears. If there is no discussion of operating efficiency, then the statement is probably in error. You may also wish to check the author's business and language credentials, if this is possible.



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 Stunden (2006-08-05 07:38:37 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

One more thing: As you delve deeper into accounting, these terms become increasing refined. This is especially true as they are applied to the construction of financial ratios and detailed accounting entries. I have spoken of them in a very general sense.
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thank you. With this, I can add a translation note with more confidence."
+2
12 mins

earnings

Earnings, I would say.
Imagine the outcome of a business.
If they just considered the outgo in terms of their income,
the business would get into a great trouble.
Peer comment(s):
agree Xu Dongjun
21 mins
Thanks.
agree Naikei Wong
42 mins
Thanks.
neutral Roddy Stegemann : income - expenditure = (profit|earnings|return) // Wenjer, I am concerned that you did not understand the question, and I provided the formula as a reminder -- nothing more.
2 hrs
I understand 利潤 to be profits. In this case, it seems that 利潤 should be income? Was this the question?
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