| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | What's your best rate? Thread poster: Bernhard Sulzer
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inkweaver 
Germany
Local time: 10:36
French to German
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Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Who do you think is bidding for such jobs? To ask someone for the best rate shows how unprofessional they are. They don't care about anything but getting someone who doesn't know what needs to be charged for the work.
They're asking for something unprofessional (IMO) and, unfortunately, for someone who is unprofessional (IMO).
I you're not convinced, look at some examples. Often, all you read is: need English-German translator, Send us your CV and best rate.
Now, who is going to answer that? Try applying or try reasoning with them. They will simply ignore you just like professionals ignore their offers.
But I believe we should help educate some who fall into their trap. Because it's a bad thing.
Since these kinds of posts have been increasing (as far as I see), it's easy to figure that there are people taking the bait; and it makes sense since there's certainly a lot of people out there who think they are or can be translators.
[Edited at 2013-09-13 18:09 GMT]
I'm not entirely convinced that every "bid" is a low bid from somebody who doesn't know any better or who is prepared to work for abysmal rates.
I used to respond to some of those offers asking for more details and without quoting a particularly low rate etc. so I assume that a number of those "bids" may actually come from people who are trying to educate clients. That may very well fall on deaf ears and there are probably people who do offer a very low rate just to get any job, but I would not necessarily assume that all of these "bids" come from people wanting to join the race to the bottom.
| | | | S_G_C (X)
Romania
Local time: 11:36
English to Romanian
| My experience | Sep 14, 2013 |
I remember seeing this formulation, best rate, in some job postings coming from Egypt and India. I associate it with my lowest/cheapest rate.
For one particular agency in India, 0.03 USD/no match for my EN-RO language pair was too high.
| | | | JaneD
Sweden
Local time: 10:36
Member (2009)
Swedish to English
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| Apology and question | Sep 14, 2013 |
Łukasz Gos-Furmankiewicz wrote:
Look, I know non-native speakers of English are to blame for everything down to power shortages and bad weather, but the phrase really sounds like a scion of the same family to which best prices and best offers belong. 'I'll give you my best prices,' and 'is that your best offer?' are perfectly native examples, it's just that 'best rates' sound considerably less natural.
Yes, apologies Łukasz, you're quite right that my comment sounds like linguistic imperialism, and that wasn't my intention. I don't actually subscribe to the "only native speakers can translate into their language" rule; I work regularly with a non-native speaker of English who writes extremely good English, and certainly much better than most natives, so I know for certain that it's not an immutable rule.
Łukasz Gos-Furmankiewicz wrote:
Also, a while ago I wondered if I wasn't actually losing potential business due to not having higher rates.
I've also wondered this, so I'd be very interested to hear your reasoning (either in a PM or maybe a separate thread). My thoughts weren't based on the attitude that we must never work for peanuts, but simply that customers wanting quality expect to pay for it and that they will naturally be suspicious of someone who professes to produce quality for a significantly lower price. How did you feel about this, and what made you change your opinion (if indeed you have)?
| | | | | I proved this assumption to be correct | Sep 14, 2013 |
JaneD wrote:
Łukasz Gos-Furmankiewicz wrote:
Also, a while ago I wondered if I wasn't actually losing potential business due to not having higher rates.
I've also wondered this, so I'd be very interested to hear your reasoning (either in a PM or maybe a separate thread). My thoughts weren't based on the attitude that we must never work for peanuts, but simply that customers wanting quality expect to pay for it and that they will naturally be suspicious of someone who professes to produce quality for a significantly lower price. How did you feel about this, and what made you change your opinion (if indeed you have)?
It was not deliberate, but my response to international economic circumstances.
I live in Brazil, so all my bills are paid in BRL. However I receive payment for a significant part of my work in USD. So currency exchange rates may have considerable impact on my income.
I set sensible rates. I know at least two dozen translators in Brazil working in my language pair, whose competence I would endorse, and who charge the same domestic rates (BRL) I do. BTW, I've been keeping this rate in BRL unchanged since July 1994, as improved productivity from advances in IT have covered inflation so far.
This said, in early 2009, the USD plummeted in Brazil: USD 1 dropped from BRL 2.0 to BRL 1.5 in a plunge. I waited that entire year, keeping my rates in USD unchanged, albeit making 25% less on every international job that I took.
So in January 2010 I got prepared (for a drop in demand), and raised my rates by 20%. I explained the reason to my 'good' clients - for whom I willingly go beyond the call of duty - and they understood and accepted immediately. The 'so-so' clients - whose jobs I always thought twice before taking, and often regretted later having taken them - vanished from my radar.
To my surprise, instead of a sudden drop in demand, I quickly acquired a whole new breed of clients who expected the quality I had always been delivering, yet who didn't believe they could get it for my previous rate in USD.
In 2012, the USD recouped, went back to BRL 2.0. Did I lower my rates in USD?
Yes and no. As some international payment methods improved, while other became stringent on P2P-only (forbidding any transaction that had the scent of a business deal), I checked on the costs of getting paid through each of them, as well as the costs of payment terms on account of comparatively very high interest rates in my home country.
So I carved in stone my house rule, "NO payment terms accepted beyond 30 days from delivery, ever!", and set up the successful system I described on my previous post in this thread.
Fast payers get the old (lower, 'best') rate. Slower payers get it too, however increased by the financial costs their payment terms/methods cause. My "stated rate" however is the higher one, quick payers being awarded discounts.
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Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 04:36
English to German
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TOPIC STARTER | Higher rates and competition | Sep 14, 2013 |
Łukasz Gos-Furmankiewicz wrote:
Also, a while ago I wondered if I wasn't actually losing potential business due to not having higher rates.
[Edited at 2013-09-14 03:28 GMT]
Yes, quite possible. But I assume you already charge higher rates than the ones this thread is about. A higher rate combined with professional work is very competitive, in the professional segment of our sector.
B
| | | | Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 04:36
English to German
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TOPIC STARTER | Educating about best rate/best quote requests | Sep 14, 2013 |
inkweaver wrote:
I'm not entirely convinced that every "bid" is a low bid from somebody who doesn't know any better or who is prepared to work for abysmal rates.
I used to respond to some of those offers asking for more details and without quoting a particularly low rate etc. so I assume that a number of those "bids" may actually come from people who are trying to educate clients. That may very well fall on deaf ears and there are probably people who do offer a very low rate just to get any job, but I would not necessarily assume that all of these "bids" come from people wanting to join the race to the bottom.
Education is always good. Educate some of the bidders about the phrase "best rate/best quote" is what I hope this thread will do. The more translators either stop bidding on these jobs or bid on other, better jobs with higher rates, the better (IMO).
[Edited at 2013-09-14 15:40 GMT]
| | | | Shai Navé
Israel
Local time: 11:36
English to Hebrew
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| Higher fees and better clients | Sep 14, 2013 |
Łukasz,
Low fees do make one miss on better clients.
It is quite simple, those who compete on price alone are either incompetent and therefore the only value that they can offer and use to "differentiate" themselves is the low price, or are targeting and/or working with clients (they usually call it for clients) who assign the same face value to all service providers and therefore the price is yet again the only way for them to attract and (temporarily) maintain clients.
... See more Łukasz,
Low fees do make one miss on better clients.
It is quite simple, those who compete on price alone are either incompetent and therefore the only value that they can offer and use to "differentiate" themselves is the low price, or are targeting and/or working with clients (they usually call it for clients) who assign the same face value to all service providers and therefore the price is yet again the only way for them to attract and (temporarily) maintain clients.
Either way, this is not the market segments that should be of interest to a professional nor the crowd a professional seeks.
That said, starting to charge higher fees is not enough. There are two additional aspects to consider:
1) One must be active in seeking the more professional market segments, i.e. raising the fee while still focusing on the bidding platforms or bottom feeding clients will likely result in loss of business and not in the appearance of new good clients out of thin air.
2) One should be able to deliver good quality and conduct him or herself professional all around. The more professional the market and clients are, the stricter their demands are and how they expect the service providers they work to handle themselves (i.e. demonstrating a pushover-like behavior is not necessarily a virtue). Too often competent-enough translators are more comfortable charging low rates and being treated badly because the other side of this coin is that there is no real responsibility except for delivering something by the agreed deadline.
I recommend doing this gradually. Whenever you start working with what you consider to be a good (or better) client, increase you fee (significantly) to one you consider to be your worst (time-wasting) client. Most chances that you will never hear from them again, which is a good thing.
This fee increase is also quite an effective, although crude, client filter. Those who accept the raise have more value for you even if you didn't see it before, while those who reject it are interested in your services only because the price is right and nothing more, and therefore are of less value. ▲ Collapse
| | | | 564354352 (X)
Denmark
Local time: 10:36
Danish to English
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| I only have one price | Sep 15, 2013 |
The very fact that outsourcers expect translators to have a range of prices confuses me.
I presume that this can only be because translators indicate a 'minimum rate' and a 'standard rate' as is more or less encouraged here on ProZ, too.
I couldn't work like that. I have one price only and I stick to this. I don't negotiate it, and I don't lower it, regardless of how excellent a prospective client may look. I explain carefully to agency clients that the only discount I can off... See more The very fact that outsourcers expect translators to have a range of prices confuses me.
I presume that this can only be because translators indicate a 'minimum rate' and a 'standard rate' as is more or less encouraged here on ProZ, too.
I couldn't work like that. I have one price only and I stick to this. I don't negotiate it, and I don't lower it, regardless of how excellent a prospective client may look. I explain carefully to agency clients that the only discount I can offer is based on repetitions and 95-100 % matches and high volume jobs, and those are my rules. I think it is a very slippery slope for any professional translator who has taken the time to determine what his/her work is going to cost only then to give in to pressure from potential clients to accommodate their wishes.
I find it very, very interesting that I have never had a direct client (non-agency) ask me to lower my price. They ask for my price along with a number of other factors, most of which are to do with quality, experience and delivery time. Only agencies discuss fees, as far as I am aware. So, the problem really lies with the agencies who negotiate too low prices with THEIR end clients BEFORE they have any assurance of finding qualified translators to undertake the work.
Bad practice. Stupid, I would say. ▲ Collapse
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Mark Benson (X)
English to Swedish
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| Interesting? | Sep 15, 2013 |
Gitte Hovedskov, MCIL wrote:
The very fact that outsourcers expect translators to have a range of prices confuses me.
I presume that this can only be because translators indicate a 'minimum rate' and a 'standard rate' as is more or less encouraged here on ProZ, too.
It's just as true here as it is anywhere. It seems more unusual with a translator with fixed rates that are stated upfront than one who either offers to quote on a case-to-case basis, or has a range just like you mention.
Sometimes there's an explanation that "every project is different" and the like, i.e. some form of explanation. This is very common. I find it difficult to understand too. It could be because the translator evaluates project rate based on what he/she would be earning per hour.
I couldn't work like that. I have one price only and I stick to this. I don't negotiate it, and I don't lower it, regardless of how excellent a prospective client may look. I explain carefully to agency clients that the only discount I can offer is based on repetitions and 95-100 % matches and high volume jobs, and those are my rules. I think it is a very slippery slope for any professional translator who has taken the time to determine what his/her work is going to cost only then to give in to pressure from potential clients to accommodate their wishes.
I find it very, very interesting that I have never had a direct client (non-agency) ask me to lower my price. They ask for my price along with a number of other factors, most of which are to do with quality, experience and delivery time. Only agencies discuss fees, as far as I am aware. So, the problem really lies with the agencies who negotiate too low prices with THEIR end clients BEFORE they have any assurance of finding qualified translators to undertake the work.
Bad practice. Stupid, I would say.
What's "interesting" or "bad" practice? This is the whole business idea behind a certain number of agencies after all, isn't it? Buy cheap and sell expensive... The end client is on the market with different intentions.
[Edited at 2013-09-15 08:51 GMT]
| | | | | Worth repeating | Sep 15, 2013 |
Gitte Hovedskov, MCIL wrote:
So, the problem really lies with the agencies who negotiate too low prices with THEIR end clients BEFORE they have any assurance of finding qualified translators to undertake the work.
I've got one even better for you though. I know of an agency here in Japan that sometimes accepts work from clients without even looking at the document first. Yes, that's right, they agree on a price for the translation without having any idea how many words/characters it contains. Unbelievable? I had trouble believing it at first, too, but it is true beyond any doubt.
Of course, after blindly accepting this job with its accompanying deadline, they must find a translator to do it.
| | | | Shai Navé
Israel
Local time: 11:36
English to Hebrew
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| The (non-)value chain | Sep 15, 2013 |
Gitte Hovedskov, MCIL wrote:
So, the problem really lies with the agencies who negotiate too low prices with THEIR end clients BEFORE they have any assurance of finding qualified translators to undertake the work.
That's assuming that the agency works with a direct client (i.e. the one who ordered the translation and will use it). In today's marketplace this is not a trivial assumption. The structure of the marketplace is very fragmented and inefficient. Many "agencies" (who could be just a person working out of his or her bedroom) service larger agencies and not direct clients, forming the (non-)value chain that originates at the MLVs (who [ab]use technology and other bent practices to increase profit on the expense of professional consideration) and by the time the work reaches the translation who will actually do the work, it passes between two to four hands, each taking their cut and put more strain on the sometimes quite reasonable deadline. Too many alleged agencies (not to be confused with professional agencies) are flooding the market, and because they don't offer any value, and therefore literally have the same face value, they compete on price alone.
The translators have their fair share of responsibility in this. Instead of taking command on their profession and market, their historic passiveness and reluctance to 'get their hand dirty' with business matters left the market to be controlled by intermediates, who might have the "business skills" but lack any respect and understanding of the profession, treating it as a medium to make money from.
| | | | | Another problem... | Sep 15, 2013 |
Gitte Hovedskov, MCIL wrote:
So, the problem really lies with the agencies who negotiate too low prices with THEIR end clients BEFORE they have any assurance of finding qualified translators to undertake the work.
Bad practice. Stupid, I would say.
Another problem is when they are in business, under-capitalized, just for the markup they can apply. Some of them not only negotiate low prices, but they also completely neglect whatever due diligence on the end-client's credit.
So when the end-client doesn't pay for any (or no) reason, they consider whether that markup amount is worth the hassle in collecting. If it's not, they simply default on paying the translator, under the lame justification that the end-client didn't pay them. There are countless such cases on the Proz Blue Board
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| "Your best rate" = "Me and you do not fit" | Sep 16, 2013 |
"Your best rate" is the buzzword that prompts me to ignore the given job posting. And that is based on experience. So far, none of the job posters who used that line was able cq. willing to pay my (fairly reasonable but not dirt cheap) rate. In other words, a job poster using that line shows me "I am fishing in the cheap segment, if you are not cool with that, do not waste you time.". Very well.
| | | | Alex Lago
Spain
Local time: 10:36
English to Spanish
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| My best rate = my highest rate | Sep 17, 2013 |
It's easy, if you do have different rates (which BTW I don't) your best rate is the most expensive one, as your "best" rate would be the rate that made you the most money.
Now if they asked for the lowest rate that would be different but if they ask for the best rate, then no doubt about it, the most expensive one it is.
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Alex Lago wrote:
It's easy, if you do have different rates (which BTW I don't) your best rate is the most expensive one, as your "best" rate would be the rate that made you the most money.
Now if they asked for the lowest rate that would be different but if they ask for the best rate, then no doubt about it, the most expensive one it is.
I like your logic, sir.
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