| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] | What's the difference? (if any) Thread poster: Aurora Humarán (X)
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Heinrich Pesch 
Finland
Local time: 07:26
Member (2003)
Finnish to German
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| How about translation? | Sep 13, 2006 |
I wonder why non of you has suggested the use of translation to resolve this matter. To me the use of the genitive of John indicates a posession.
1 I hate John´s eating snails
2 I hate John´s eating of snails
Translation into German yields:
1 Ich hasse Johanns essende Schnecken
2 Ich hasse Johanns Essen von Schnecken
I 'm happy Marcela brought up the facts about the "eating snails". Because when I read these two sentences the firs... See more I wonder why non of you has suggested the use of translation to resolve this matter. To me the use of the genitive of John indicates a posession.
1 I hate John´s eating snails
2 I hate John´s eating of snails
Translation into German yields:
1 Ich hasse Johanns essende Schnecken
2 Ich hasse Johanns Essen von Schnecken
I 'm happy Marcela brought up the facts about the "eating snails". Because when I read these two sentences the first time I had just that in mind. Because here in Finland, because of the harsh winters, we did not "enjoy" the presence of these creatures in the past. We used to have only very small landsnails. Then some 15 years ago a species we call Spanish snails or Killersnails arrived at the Southern coast and started to spread. They cannibalise on other snails and perhaps on members of their own species.
Regards
Heinrich ▲ Collapse
| | | | | my native british non linguist hub ... | Sep 13, 2006 |
who is called John and would definitely hate eating snails says:
1) I hate John's eating snails = I hate the snails (the snails eat and belong to John)
2) I hate John's eating of snails = I hate the fact that John eats snails
That was John's 2 p
| | | | Pavle Perencevic
Canada
Local time: 21:26
Member (2002)
Serbian to English
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Graciela Carlyle wrote:
who is called John and would definitely hate eating snails says:
1) I hate John's eating snails = I hate the snails (the snails eat and belong to John)
2) I hate John's eating of snails = I hate the fact that John eats snails
That was John's 2 p
That's essentially what my wife, who is a native English speaker, says too.
But the sentence "I hate John's eating snails" is also grammatically correct in the sense of "I hate the fact that John eats snails" because "eating" here is a gerund ("Eating snails is disgusting.") It follows the same pattern as "I appreciate your translating this for me".
I think that when one hears/sees "I hate John's eating..." one tends to expect "eating" to be an adjectival present participle qualifying the noun that follows it, as in "I hate John's eating... habits". That's why this idea of John's eating and non-eating snails is so intrusive, and that's probably why the I-hate-John-eating-snails type of construction is much more common - to avoid this sort of mental confusion.
| | | | Terry Gilman
Germany
Local time: 06:26
Member (2003)
German to English
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| "eating" from a non-linguist | Sep 15, 2006 |
Hi Aurora,
I, too, like "your asking of tricky grammar questions." As the AmE say, I basically love your posts in general. And I know I join many more...
I grew up in Massachusetts and initially/spontaneously interpreted both sentences as having the same meaning, just the different constructions that are possible with the gerund, as Kim's and Robert J.'s posts indicate. (Same result with my ex pat sister north of Paris.)
One could certainly interpret "eati... See more Hi Aurora,
I, too, like "your asking of tricky grammar questions." As the AmE say, I basically love your posts in general. And I know I join many more...
I grew up in Massachusetts and initially/spontaneously interpreted both sentences as having the same meaning, just the different constructions that are possible with the gerund, as Kim's and Robert J.'s posts indicate. (Same result with my ex pat sister north of Paris.)
One could certainly interpret "eating snails" as "snails that eat" but IMHO only as the first meaning if you are a snail expert and know about those ferocious eating snails, or after stumbling over the sentence and deciding that it is a "garden-path" joke (see the article in Wikipedia: Fat people eat accumulates). I don't read eating as an adjective, at least not at first, not without reading the other posts.
I've said this sort of thing to my mother about my brother-in-law's riding motorcycles and my sister's jumping horses. I hate it, not them; that's why I'd never say "I hate John (eating snails)," though that's certainly possible grammatically as others have shown. With "hate," I would always use the possessive. They have small kids, my fantastic nephew and neice, and ought to skip the harebrained sports or save them for later, once the kids have grown up (just my two cents). They also do deep-sea diving, but never mind. Perhaps it is the love of risk that induced them to have kids in this day and age. They live in France, and we all eat snails disgustingly and with gusto...
I suppose I also use the possessive, when I use the first construction at all (it *is* awkward, and I'd definitely edit it out in writing) because I had a little transformational grammar and Latin in school. It was interesting to read that some people find that the "of" changes the meaning from the "fact that" to the "way" John eats snails. This could be, but that nuance is definitely not automatic for me. In my opinion, it would require the rest of the context to be sure.
Even apart from the fact that sentences in linguistcs classes at the university are contrived for pedagogical purposes, it's usually difficult to interpret individual sentences. The "paragraph" (also in speech) is what counts; it's the the unit of meaning. Not the sentence, usually (except for "Help!" or "Fire!"). That's why it is so easy to quote people out of context. The one sound bite may or may not be an adequate reflection of the message or claim.
Now let me say congratulations on the conference in BsAs. It looked/sounded great, and I really, really wished I could have been there. I loved the time I spent in Argentina (in the 80s ( Alfonsin era, but not the aftermath).
Your other post about trying to capture the discussion for the rest of us really intrigued me, and I hope you pursue it. (Where is it?)
And I'm sorry about the contention that seems to have cropped up in or even engulfed the Spanish forum. I can't follow it completely, but perhaps that's a good thing. From a distance and through the Spanish glass darkly (my rusty Spanish, and I know it is not really politically correct to use the word "Spanish," sorry), it looks to me like a case of over-editing, not censorship. Editors, like writers, also fall in love with their words, and think that just because they have a "better" solution, it's worth imposing. I've done it myself, I'm sorry to say. (Well, sometimes, I really thought it was an improvement...). I'm sure you know about the "editor's twitch."
As the Germans say, Halt die Ohren steif (literally "hold your ears stiff"). This is, admitedly, a really weird way of saying Bon Courage or Suerte, but it is one of the reasons "I love German" (it is so weird).
All the best,
Terry ▲ Collapse
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Aurora Humarán (X)
Argentina
Local time: 02:26
English to Spanish
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TOPIC STARTER
Terry Gilman wrote:
Now let me say congratulations on the conference in BsAs. It looked/sounded great, and I really, really wished I could have been there. I loved the time I spent in Argentina (in the 80s ( Alfonsin era, but not the aftermath).
Your other post about trying to capture the discussion for the rest of us really intrigued me, and I hope you pursue it. (Where is it?)
Thank you SO MUCH for your kind words, Terry. I really appreciate them.
We are still working on the posting as the plan is to browse all the sessions and share with you all the pictures, reflections on each of the sessions and the speaker's speeches (though most of these are in Spanish). In fact, my idea is to help you somehow 'feel' what we felt in this amazing event.
Ruth Henderson volunteered (again! she had also volunteered to translate La Traducíada I wrote in 2004 into The Transodyssey: http://www.proz.com/topic/29306 ) to translate our words. Coming soon!
As the Germans say, Halt die Ohren steif (literally "hold your ears stiff"). This is, admitedly, a really weird way of saying Bon Courage or Suerte, but it is one of the reasons "I love German" (it is so weird).
If the day had more hours, I would definitely start learning German (Basque and Greek are also candidates). (Did you happen to read a poem on the German language by Borges I posted in the L/P Forum some time ago?)
Au
| | | | Aurora Humarán (X)
Argentina
Local time: 02:26
English to Spanish
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TOPIC STARTER | Degrees of nominalization of the gerund | Sep 16, 2006 |
Let me share with you what we were analyizing in class (Contrastive Analysis):
There are four degrees of nominalization of the gerund:
1) First degree >>> nouns (building, ceiling*)
2) Second degree >>> as premodifier of nouns (a 'walking stick' as opposed to a 'walking doll')
3) Third degre (My father's careless driving)
The/possessive/X's/No.. + (adj.) + V-ing
4) Fourth degree (His driving his car fast caused bla bla... See more Let me share with you what we were analyizing in class (Contrastive Analysis):
There are four degrees of nominalization of the gerund:
1) First degree >>> nouns (building, ceiling*)
2) Second degree >>> as premodifier of nouns (a 'walking stick' as opposed to a 'walking doll')
3) Third degre (My father's careless driving)
The/possessive/X's/No.. + (adj.) + V-ing
4) Fourth degree (His driving his car fast caused bla bla bla)
Possessive/X's/No/(No subject) + V-ing (Nominal phrase) (Adverbial Adjunct)
The professor mentioned something about the etymology of the word ceiling that made me think how repetition of words (by everyday use, for example) does not allow us to reflect on their origin. (Come to think of it, may be this limit is a blessing or we would be reflecting all day long )
[Edited at 2006-09-16 08:08] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Aurora Humarán (X)
Argentina
Local time: 02:26
English to Spanish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
I hate John's eating snails.
[John's eating snails] is an AA (adverbial adjunct). This is an instance of the fourth degree of nominalization which emphasizes a WAY (manner) of doing something (or the attitude)
I hate John's eating of snails.
Gramatically, [John's eating of snails] is a noun clause acting as DO of the verb hate. From the analysis of the gerund above, this is an example of the third degree of nominalization. (The emphasis is on the act... See more I hate John's eating snails.
[John's eating snails] is an AA (adverbial adjunct). This is an instance of the fourth degree of nominalization which emphasizes a WAY (manner) of doing something (or the attitude)
I hate John's eating of snails.
Gramatically, [John's eating of snails] is a noun clause acting as DO of the verb hate. From the analysis of the gerund above, this is an example of the third degree of nominalization. (The emphasis is on the action)
Translation into Spanish
I hate John's eating snails.
Odio cómo John come caracoles. (Indicative Mood in Spanish, btw)
I hate John's eating of snails.
Odio que John coma caracoles. (Subjunctive Mood in Spanish, aghghgh!)
[Edited at 2006-09-16 08:34] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Aurora Humarán (X)
Argentina
Local time: 02:26
English to Spanish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Thank you very much | Sep 16, 2006 |
Your comments have been very useful and have triggered other thoughts (which is more than welcome )
When faced with the two sentences for the first time, I did not see any difference at all and I thought that was because I am not a native speaker of English. So apart from studying the subject, I NEEDED to double check with real native speakers.
This posting has made me wonder also to what extend ha... See more Your comments have been very useful and have triggered other thoughts (which is more than welcome )
When faced with the two sentences for the first time, I did not see any difference at all and I thought that was because I am not a native speaker of English. So apart from studying the subject, I NEEDED to double check with real native speakers.
This posting has made me wonder also to what extend having an Academy that rules the language (Real Academia Española) has a certain effect on Spanish speakers.
We are told that the period should be here:
"Bla bla bla bla bla".
I does not matter if we think it should be here:
"Bla bla bla bla bla."
The Academia rules.
May be we speakers of a 'regulated' language have an insight of the language as a whole completely different from that of a speaker of a 'non-regulated language.' That I thought when reading so different insights on a same topic. In Spanish, we usually have a black or white answer.
Regarding this new stage in my life (the master's course I started last year), there is a long way ahead, so I will certainly come back soon with more questions. (This exchange is too great an opportunity to be be missed!)
Thank you VERY much!
Au
[Edited at 2006-09-16 11:23] ▲ Collapse
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Robert Tucker (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 05:26
German to English
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Aurora Humarán wrote:
... to double check with real native speakers.
It might be interesting to find the effect of replacing the verb "to eat" with "to partake"?
I hate John's partaking snails.
I hate John's partaking of snails.
| | | | Terry Gilman
Germany
Local time: 06:26
Member (2003)
German to English
+ ...
| Thanks for the list of 4 types of gerunds | Sep 16, 2006 |
Hi Aurora,
Not having this type of education, I find it fascinating to read this granular analysis (the fact that he eats vs. how he eats, etc.). I really appreciate your sharing these various aspects.
I'd still hazard the guess that these subtleties would often be lost at the sentence level even for native speakers (ahem, they were lost on me, though obviously not on many of the other native speakers who commented) and would usually require the elaborations given in ... See more Hi Aurora,
Not having this type of education, I find it fascinating to read this granular analysis (the fact that he eats vs. how he eats, etc.). I really appreciate your sharing these various aspects.
I'd still hazard the guess that these subtleties would often be lost at the sentence level even for native speakers (ahem, they were lost on me, though obviously not on many of the other native speakers who commented) and would usually require the elaborations given in paragraphs or in the self-corrections and elaborations that occur in dialog to be clear.
Although I looked, I couldn't find the Borges/German forum entry (perhaps you could send me the link), but am looking forward to reading about Terry Cullen and translating Mafalda, from which I learned a lot back in the days when it looked like my life might expand into Argentina. Here in Düsseldorf, there's a shop with the name Mafalda that sells sexy outfits for women. Every time I go by it, I think of some piercing question or sarcastic remark Mafalda might make. At the same time, there's something to be said for leveraging the cliches of feminine wiles to get and use power. (But that is really off-topic.)
All the best,
Terry ▲ Collapse
| | | | mediamatrix (X)
Local time: 02:26
Spanish to English
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| Degrees of nominalization of the gerund ? | Sep 16, 2006 |
Errrr.... sorry.  What on earth are you talking about?
Like Terry, I don't have this type of education - although I did attend two of the best grammar (sic) schools in the south-east of England for more years than I care to remember, more years ago than I can count.
I've no desire whatsoever to dilute the tone of this erudite discussion, but let's not forget that the question a... See more Errrr.... sorry. What on earth are you talking about?
Like Terry, I don't have this type of education - although I did attend two of the best grammar (sic) schools in the south-east of England for more years than I care to remember, more years ago than I can count.
I've no desire whatsoever to dilute the tone of this erudite discussion, but let's not forget that the question as originally asked was designed to collect the interpretations of the two sentences by "non-linguists". Although I use 'foreign' languages on a daily basis (if only because I've lived and worked outside my home country for 30 years), I am not a linguist, never was, never will be.
The explantions offered by Au are understandable primarily (only?) to linguists. Indeed, I wonder to what extent expressions such as "Possessive/X's/No/(No subject) + V-ing (Nominal phrase) (Adverbial Adjunct)" might be mere figments of the academic's imagination, conjoured up to keep students at study and professors in work. In any event, such subtleties are quite lost on the common speaker who is far more concerned with the art of communication than with the science of its analysis.
Having said that, I venture to suggest that an expert in English dialects (a breed apparently absent from this thread...) might be able to pin-point geographical differences between the 'snail' sentences that would confirm the view expressed by a minority of contributors to the effect that there is no essential difference in meaning.
To illustrate my point (if anyone's ready to play along) I wonder, for example, what differences - real or imaginary - could be found between these two sentences:
I haven't got any money.
and
I've not got any money.
MediaMatrix
[Edited at 2006-09-16 18:53] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Aurora Humarán (X)
Argentina
Local time: 02:26
English to Spanish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
mediamatrix wrote:
Errrr.... sorry. What on earth are you talking about?
After having read all your contributions (mostly from native speakers of English), I am sharing with you what the professor taught us.
I've no desire whatsoever to dilute the tone of this erudite discussion, but let's not forget that the question as originally asked was designed to collect the interpretations of the two sentences by "non-linguists".
I know what the question was. But my explanation was not another contribution, but just my way of somehow closing the story. Of course I don't mean we cannot continue talking about this thread, but: after having read so many contributions I thought you would find it interesting to read what I had been explained.
Regards.
Au
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