| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16] > | KudoZ: should "rubbish" help be appreciated? Thread poster: IanW (X)
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Thomas Pfann 
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:48
Member (2006)
English to German
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| Scrapping the points won't solve the problem | Jul 19, 2006 |
Eva Middleton wrote:
I wish KudoZ wasn't for points - this should get rid of a whole bunch of problems associated with it.
I don't think that scrapping the points will solve the problem at all as I don't see the points as the main motivation for posting replies.
If you have KudoZ without the points, then the people you are now calling 'point grabbers' will still keep posting replies - not as 'point grabbers' then, but maybe as 'attention seekers' or because they are bored or over-enthusiastic (or a mixture of all of these)? The real professionals would possibly turn away and no longer bother doing their bit of research.
There is a German online dictionary website (LEO) with a forum which in principle is very similar to KudoZ (albeit on a more amateurish level and far less regulated - no registration necessary to ask or answer questions): People ask terminology questions and others answer. There are loads of regular answerers there - some of them always spot-on, but there are also some who post rubbish answers without thinking first or who question perfectly correct answers just to spark endless discussions about unimportant details. They are not earning points, their answers are not counted or listed anywhere - they just do it for the fun of it. They like the attention they are getting or are simply 'linguistic anoracs' (love that expression - I do count myself into this category) with too much time on their hands. Let's face it: We all love seeing our name 'published' on the internet and reading our own gibberish over and over again.
I do believe in the self-regulatory element mentioned by Henry and others. But then again, the little experience with KudoZ I have, is with the EN>GE side, which I understand isn't that bad anyway.
I suppose it's mainly a matter of more members joining ProZ.com (don't have any figures, but I have the impression that the ProZ community is steadily growing) means more members answering KudoZ question - and it are always the loudest and quickest who get to the front first. Unfortunately, when you are diligent and thorough, you often cannot be the loudest and quickest in answering questions.
| | | | Dyran Altenburg (X)
United States
Local time: 10:48
English to Spanish
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| Carrot and stick | Jul 19, 2006 |
Thomas Pfann wrote:
If you have KudoZ without the points, then the people you are now calling 'point grabbers' will still keep posting replies - not as 'point grabbers' then, but maybe as 'attention seekers' or because they are bored or over-enthusiastic (or a mixture of all of these)? The real professionals would possibly turn away and no longer bother doing their bit of research.
This is not what I see in some translators' mailing lists where shooting from the hip is discouraged.
Of course, the ocassional "guesser" pops in, but, more often than not, people learn to ask intelligent questions (after doing quite a bit of research themselves), and tend to answer with well-researched and well-thought out solutions.
Sure, those lists don't have tens of thousands of participants, and I can see how some people would find the approach too "hostile" or "uncaring", but it does the job beautifully.
--
Dyran
(who, of course, doesn't do Kudoz)
| | | | | KudoZ – community building/quality control/criticism | Jul 19, 2006 |
KudoZ answering, in my opinion, is essentially about building good, reliable glossaries. Any serious translator knows that it's impossible to create a good glossary or dictionary unless solid linguistic standards are applied. Applying linguistic standards means using professional judgment and being critical, i.e. the very opposite of accepting anything that anyone proposes. KudoZ is not and never was intended to be a social club where everyone is expected to be perfectly nice to each other. No ... See more KudoZ answering, in my opinion, is essentially about building good, reliable glossaries. Any serious translator knows that it's impossible to create a good glossary or dictionary unless solid linguistic standards are applied. Applying linguistic standards means using professional judgment and being critical, i.e. the very opposite of accepting anything that anyone proposes. KudoZ is not and never was intended to be a social club where everyone is expected to be perfectly nice to each other. No – I'm not saying common standards of etiquette can be abandoned – but the end result is serious and being "nice" to an answerer who has submitted hogwash is counterproductive. That's what the "disagree" option is for. From the outset, KudoZ came with a set of tools designed to give members/users the tools needed to increase the odds that what went into the glossaries was reliable, one of which is the peer grading tool.
Why is it that the results are better in some language pairs than in others? I think it comes down to the community that has formed in each language pair. My experience is mainly with German / English and English monolingual. The German/English (and German/French I might add) communities have always been very strong, I think, and I have noticed a steady improvement in English monolingual lately. What these communities have in common is that the majority of members are critical. They are friendly, and it's fun to be among them, but they don't like the bandwagon effect that you see in some language pairs. English monolingual used to be notorious for the bandwagon effect:
"The bandwagon effect is the observation that people often do (or believe) things because many other people do (or believe) the same. The effect is often pejoratively referred to as herd instinct, particularly as applied to adolescents. Without examining the merits of the particular thing, people tend to "follow the crowd." The bandwagon effect is the reason for the bandwagon fallacy's success."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandwagon_effect
And I would like to thank you - Ian - for helping to make KudoZ a better experience than it is in some other language pairs. People enjoy answering your questions because they are always challenging and well prepared. And I truly believe your forum thread "Who needs the natives" written a couple of years ago started a trend in English monolingual towards a more discriminating and therefore a more productive environment. ▲ Collapse
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Ian Winick wrote:
@ Henry: I wouldn't go so far as to describe my post as "attacking" someone - if you'd like an example of that, then I can give you some choice examples courtesy of an absent friend.
I don't think I characterized anything as an attack.
You wrote: "Mats has also argued (ironically enough, in light of the selected quotes) for tolerance." Sorry, but this has nothing to do with tolerance...
I am simply pointing out that Mats has argued for tolerance. And he has. His motivations, at least as I read them, are an open and generous spirit, a love of language, and a passion for learning. In other words, the picture I have of Mats is different than that one that was being portrayed in this thread. I have thought of his moniker "point-grabber" as self-effacing humor.
Just my impression, for what it is worth.
In short, the problem isn't that there is an "occasional" rubbish answer, the problem is that there are often far more bad answers than good. And such an environment cannot be self-regulating.
In my opinion, unless things get better, all self-respecting professionals will eventually fold up their tents and steal away into the night. And unless outsourcers are looking for people who can locate the word for "cat" in 25 different languages, I fail to see how this will benefit the site and its owners in the long run.
We ran a survey recently and more people felt that the level of KudoZ discourse was on an upward trend than felt it was on a downward trend. Of course, there is always room for improvement and we will continue to experiment.
Thanks!
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| Thanks, CMJ_Trans | Jul 19, 2006 |
CMJ_Trans wrote:
Sorry to come back at you Henry but you have rather twisted my words. To say that you favour personal choice and infer that I don't is a fine example of a syllogism in my book.
The fact is, we have given askers the choice and they are choosing "for points". You are among them.
What you are advocating amounts to removing the option to ask "for points" questions. So it is about choice.
Just tell me one thing, however, what use are the dreaded points? Can you give me an example of how they have made a difference?
I would genuinely like to understand.
One could write a thesis on that. (One person has). I have my own theory for why points draw attention to the system and indirectly lead to people starting to use it. I think points are like the click of a mouse. They let you know you've done something.
But that is just my theory.
Thanks for posting. I don't take your position as argumentative and hope you won't take mine as such.
| | | | Courtney McConnel (X)
France
Local time: 16:48
French to English
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| so many interesting things here... | Jul 19, 2006 |
CMJ_Trans wrote:
...people would contribute an answer with comments that involved some thought and not minding if others came along, picked up the ball and ran with it to end up with the most correct possible answer (often there is no absolute right or wrong).
It's back to what I said in the earlier exchange Ian mentioned: brainstorming used to be the name of the game and I, for one, regret that the move now is towards clans, buddies, personal vendettas (I have found myself in this situation and have even written privately to the perpetuator to no effect - or indeed reply).
I cannot be the only person who doesn't give a damn about points but I do give a damn about people choosing duff answers and their little friends patting them on the backs. Exactly what are they trying to achieve?
I agree with Ian that to say "any answer" is worthwhile and we should be grateful is wrong. I do understand that we should all be grateful to those who volunteer their time to try and help. Perhaps that is what was really meant, no more, no less.
Well, that's a weight off my mind - and given the heat, a good job, too !
Chris
This is so well stated I can only agree, even about the heat! ; )
Ian darling, do you really think the pros will steal away in the night? I've read some of your Kudoz involving French & you seem to enjoy very intelligent Q & A's. What Irene says about an intellectuals' club is an interesting concept that I'm sure you would love. But what would qualify participants? I.Q. such as Mensa? Money? That doesn't always accompany intelligence. Verification of passport?
I'm just playing. Fortunately, that's allowed in the Forum! (Only kidding!) : )
Okay, I will confess something about my Kudoz questions. I almost never ask them when I'm under pressure coz I just don't have the time for all the little buttons (which everyone else seems to master to no end! native, non-native, newbie or other) and people's varying sensibilities & my own feelings of stress & the time to convey the whole context & the fact that the client has probably done most of her research from American documents & then translated it for her report, so I just ask him directly if it's not in the Kudoz glossary, or on eurodicautom (another fave of mine) or in google searches that convince me they're the real deal.
Henry, it's nice to 'meet' you. This is the first time we've crossed paths & I like you're democratic approach. (Not trying to brown nose or anything.)
Ian, if you don't mind my diverging a couple millimeters, Irene makes a point about the wildly varying price structures offered on proz. She phrases it so divinely I won't repeat it, but I'd like to say that at ESIT I have heard talk of a statute for translators similar to what accountants or lawyers have separating the dabblers from the pros. I don't know if it's specific to France, but my school is very much in favor of it & it might be something you would like to get involved in (if poss). Unlike lawyers, I believe it would not be limited to translation school graduates--there's some clever way that it includes all skilled translators. Just FYI...
Oh my God, it's 2 am!!! I've been on proz for like 3 hours.
Ciao!
| | | | Heinrich Pesch
Finland
Local time: 17:48
Member (2003)
Finnish to German
+ ...
| Why not abolish this forum (Kudoz)? | Jul 20, 2006 |
I follow sometimes the EN-DE-kudoz thread, and when I see a questions has not been answered after a few hours I click on it to see what's wrong. Sometimes I find an answer, but I always chose the "how shure are you"-points accordingly. If I'm only guessing I select 1. So the answerer should not be offended by my help, even if I was completely off the track.
My technical dictionaries are full of entries, which are completely outdated. And I don't believe, that any online system could... See more I follow sometimes the EN-DE-kudoz thread, and when I see a questions has not been answered after a few hours I click on it to see what's wrong. Sometimes I find an answer, but I always chose the "how shure are you"-points accordingly. If I'm only guessing I select 1. So the answerer should not be offended by my help, even if I was completely off the track.
My technical dictionaries are full of entries, which are completely outdated. And I don't believe, that any online system could be invented that excludes false answers to translation of words.
Thanks for the hint about LEO and the forum on it. I hadn't noticed.
I understand that native English translators are frustrated about low quality answers from non-natives. But in many instances the anwerer needs to be native in the source language instead of the target language in order to understand the question properly.
I don't know about point grabbers. At least in the Finnish-German section there is no-one to be seen. Questions can stay open for months without answers.
If I do not know the German word for some Finnish expression I ask in the FI-EN-section rather than in FI-DE. But there are often more than one right answer in German, depending on the different manufacturers who use their own terminology.
My suggestion: Abolish the Kudoz-related forum. That will satisfy all. No more complains.
Regards
Heinrich ▲ Collapse
| | | | Fan Gao
Australia
Local time: 02:48
English to Chinese
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| Deduct points for "rubbish" | Jul 20, 2006 |
How about if the chosen answer received 4 points or whatever number of points the asker wanted to award and then all of the other answerers had 1 point deducted from their overall score?
This would make it more challenging, people would think more and research their answers more before just posting the first dictionary entry or google hit they found and basically it would deter the "points-grabbers" from answering questions in fields and in language pairs where they have little or n... See more How about if the chosen answer received 4 points or whatever number of points the asker wanted to award and then all of the other answerers had 1 point deducted from their overall score?
This would make it more challenging, people would think more and research their answers more before just posting the first dictionary entry or google hit they found and basically it would deter the "points-grabbers" from answering questions in fields and in language pairs where they have little or no experience.
If someone was to post the same answer a split second after someone else and ran the risk of having a point deducted they could simply delete their answer.
If people saw a clearly correct answer receiving alot of agrees they could have the option to then delete their answer.
Someone said that the main aim of Kudoz was to build a great glossary which I think is good. I think this would help that aim.
Would there be a danger of incorrect terms being entered into the glossary? I don't think there'd be any more danger of that than there is now.
Just an idea, what do you think?
Mark
Edited to add one more point. Any feature that has a points system by definition becomes a competition, a game. In competitions and games you can win points and you can lose points, that's fair.
[Edited at 2006-07-20 04:29] ▲ Collapse
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Dyran Altenburg (X)
United States
Local time: 10:48
English to Spanish
+ ...
Chinese Concept wrote:
Just an idea, what do you think?
I think that if you create a system that can be abused, it will be abused.
Trusting that people will play nice, and do the right thing is rather naive.
As for the KOG being a great glossary, I'm rather skeptical. Shouldn't it be cleaned up first of all the rubbish?
--
Dyran
(burning the midnight oil)
| | | | Irene N
United States
Local time: 09:48
English to Russian
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| Rubbish in - rubbish out | Jul 20, 2006 |
Dyran wrote: Trusting that people will play nice, and do the right thing is rather naive.
Yep!
What are we talking about? Like we do not know that glossary requires editing or it can be nothing but a receiving bin installed at the beginning of a process line but without any further processing in our case.
With the current state of affairs formally noone has any right to mark anybody's translation "rubbish" and take it out of KOG. We may pull our hair out, ... See more Dyran wrote: Trusting that people will play nice, and do the right thing is rather naive.
Yep!
What are we talking about? Like we do not know that glossary requires editing or it can be nothing but a receiving bin installed at the beginning of a process line but without any further processing in our case.
With the current state of affairs formally noone has any right to mark anybody's translation "rubbish" and take it out of KOG. We may pull our hair out, treat rubbish as such for our own purposes or filter, but this is all we can do. Plus anybody's translation can be torn to pieces by any editor or translator on a spot.
Hypothetically (following professional logic, which I believe is the only possible way to have a decent KOG):
We need an editorial committee with approved editors in each pair. We need to officially recognize their authority (or have Proz appoint them and offer us an option to agree or to leave, just like in corporate world:-)) and have them paid out of Proz profits or membership fees for working in their pair for, say, 1 full day a month cleaning whatever garbage have had been dumped into KOG over the "fiscal" month.
This is not even a proposal, just my understanding of the proper path to a worthy KOG. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Vito Smolej
Germany
Local time: 16:48
Member (2004)
English to Slovenian
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | It's Wikiwords | Jul 20, 2006 |
Hypothetically ...We need an editorial committee with approved editors in each pair. We need to officially recognize their authority ...
I would assume that wikiwords.org has a chance to become something like it. With our entries here - among other sources - serving as the proverbial shoebox. To be used not just to milk it, but also as a repository of candidates for future Wikiwords entries.
Regards
Vito
[Edited at 2006-07-20 08:12]
| | | | CMJ_Trans (X)
Local time: 16:48
French to English
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| Henry - p l e a s e.... | Jul 20, 2006 |
Stops telling me I choose the "with points" option. I don't. It happens to be the default setting and, like most people, I tend to go along without thinking with that.
Why not make the "no points" option the default setting and then we'll see which way this cat is going to jump?
I repeat, it is not a conscious choice on my part AND I bet most other "askers" would say the same.
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| Kudoz, Scrabble, the Internet, common sense... | Jul 20, 2006 |
Hello everyone:
Although I registered in Proz.com almost since the beginning of it, in 1999 (though I am not a paying-member), I just recently decided to participate (answer questions) in Kudoz, mainly because I see it as a way of "returning" the favor of being allowed to use the Gloss-search tool that Proz.com offers for free (I have been using it for at least a year). So far I have tried to answer only one question per day or less (depending on how much time my work leaves me).... See more Hello everyone:
Although I registered in Proz.com almost since the beginning of it, in 1999 (though I am not a paying-member), I just recently decided to participate (answer questions) in Kudoz, mainly because I see it as a way of "returning" the favor of being allowed to use the Gloss-search tool that Proz.com offers for free (I have been using it for at least a year). So far I have tried to answer only one question per day or less (depending on how much time my work leaves me).
Although I consider myself a veteran translator (more than 10 years of experience), I have to say that, at least in the EN>ES area where I use it, Kudoz has been quite useful to me a lot of times, because in spite of my experience sometimes I get stuck with a word or a phrase and then I get an idea (not necessarily an answer) by looking up this word/phrase through the Kudoz/Gloss-search tool. And I have been answering questions with the same attitude in mind (though I have only posted one question).
Like others have also commented, I have also realized that Kudoz has a sort of "game attraction", in my case almost like "Scrabble", because as a translator I like word-related challenges and I find that Kudoz allows a lot of creativity in this respect.
Therefore, I find Kudoz useful in spite of the obvious incorrect entries that are made by some of those who someone wisely called in another thread not too long ago "[near-heroin] addicts" (read "point-grabbers").
And yes, I have also noticed, as many have already mentioned, that some people definitely seem to use Kudoz (and I would add that even some forums) almost like an elementary/high-school playground, with cliques or gangs supporting or "fighting" each other (although I do understand that some people see this interaction as a way of building a "community").
So, in short, I try to get/give the best out of/to Kudoz, especially considering that it is a free tool. Obviously it is an Internet resource (like many others) that needs to be "handled with care", meaning use your common sense (or your expertise) to choose the right option.
I do have a suggestion to Ian (in case you haven't done this already): if you so strongly feel the need to make Kudoz better, why don't you and others who feel the same design a really detailed plan of how to improve the quality of it (I believe you can do this in the http://www.proz.com/forum/13 forum), to see what happens. Maybe then will you be able to really determine if there is room for improvement.
Saludos,
Ivette ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Vote of no-confidence for moderators | Jul 20, 2006 |
The day I was censured by a moderator for deciding not to award points to any of the answers I received (because I didn't think any of them were correct) and being told "just to pick one and make a glossary entry", I lost a bit confidence in the KudoZ system.
I have, however, often found it a life-saver over the last 3 years. I've also learned that it's a system which is to be used with caution and requires a bit of experience to separate the wheat from the chaff. I've learned whos... See more The day I was censured by a moderator for deciding not to award points to any of the answers I received (because I didn't think any of them were correct) and being told "just to pick one and make a glossary entry", I lost a bit confidence in the KudoZ system.
I have, however, often found it a life-saver over the last 3 years. I've also learned that it's a system which is to be used with caution and requires a bit of experience to separate the wheat from the chaff. I've learned whose answers to trust, as I know they will be well-researched and carefully considered, and conversely, which users are merely point-whores and attention-seekers.
I would have been lost many times without the help of some of my KudoZ colleagues, but would like to see some kind of system implemented to discourage mindless point-grabbing. I also want the freedom to be able to make my own decisions on the answers I receive. I select answers carefully and with a great deal of consideration, and I would like to be given the credit I am due for making educated, responsible terminology decisions and glossary entries. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Help should always be appreciated | Jul 20, 2006 |
Many times I find myself translating in the middle of the night, having to deliver first thing in the morning and being in need of assistance for one or more words (which I cannot find in any dict. or site).
I have sometimes seen people try to help, whose answers were not what I expected but, at least, they took the time to look them up in another dict. which I didnt have. Sometimes their answers gave me "food for thinking" and helped me find the right word only by thinking in a dif... See more Many times I find myself translating in the middle of the night, having to deliver first thing in the morning and being in need of assistance for one or more words (which I cannot find in any dict. or site).
I have sometimes seen people try to help, whose answers were not what I expected but, at least, they took the time to look them up in another dict. which I didnt have. Sometimes their answers gave me "food for thinking" and helped me find the right word only by thinking in a different way.
There were also times I saw someone post a question which was not answered for hours and tried to help in the same way as other colleagues helped me in the past. I know that some answers may not be the exact ones that match their text and things get even worse when you have no context.
However, I experienced irony and aggressive behavior from others who just comment by saying something liek "this is completely wrong" but they do not take the time to give an alternative.
I had decided to never answer again, since I really do not need this kind of behavior when all I try to do is help out but on the other hand I think that if I was the asker and I had a deadline to meet then every help would be good help.
Besides, it is up to the asker to evaluate the quality of the answers given and select the most helful.
P.S. I don't understand why everyone is trying to earn points... it's not money!!! ▲ Collapse
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