| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6] > | Forget about machine translation: it still stinks, and it will stink forever Thread poster: Daniel Frisano
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Lieven Malaise
Belgium
Local time: 20:29
Member (2020)
French to Dutch
+ ...
| Other experience. | Nov 21, 2022 |
Josephine Cassar wrote:
And even if there had been no mistakes, it still conditions the translator as it produces a word for word translation and the result is that the translation is stilted, not natural and it's then very difficult to fix.
Not sure what you use, but I use paid neural MT and I can guarantee you that it doesn't produce anything like a "word for word" translation. It gives you several alternatives for every single sentence and often even provides you with all kinds of expressions. The time gain is considerable because, for example, if you would like to start your sentence with the last word provided by the MT engine translation you don't have to rewrite the sentence yourself: 1 single click is all it takes and the rest of your sentence is immediately adapted accordingly.
In my humble opinion a lot of people are not aware of the rather amazing possibilities (N)MT is already providing. Of course I am not talking about free and crappy MT engines.
| | | | | But, to clarify | Nov 21, 2022 |
Lieven Malaise wrote:
Josephine Cassar wrote:
And even if there had been no mistakes, it still conditions the translator as it produces a word for word translation and the result is that the translation is stilted, not natural and it's then very difficult to fix.
Not sure what you use, but I use paid neural MT and I can guarantee you that it doesn't produce anything like a "word for word" translation. It gives you several alternatives for every single sentence and often even provides you with all kinds of expressions. The time gain is considerable because, for example, if you would like to start your sentence with the last word provided by the MT engine translation you don't have to rewrite the sentence yourself: 1 single click is all it takes and the rest of your sentence is immediately adapted accordingly.
In my humble opinion a lot of people are not aware of the rather amazing possibilities (N)MT is already providing. Of course I am not talking about free and crappy MT engines.
I do not do the MT translations myself but proofread/edit them. I'm also sure the translations are not done by a human person but by a machine which gives a word for a word translation, nothing wrong in the ones I received but altogether, the phrase or sentence is awkward, so it has to be adjusted. And that is why I assume the ones I receive are not done by a human being. A translator worth his salt would adjust the translation in such a way that it isn't awkward any more.
| | | | Lieven Malaise
Belgium
Local time: 20:29
Member (2020)
French to Dutch
+ ...
Josephine Cassar wrote:
I'm also sure the translations are not done by a human person but by a machine which gives a word for a word translation.
Well of course, it's machine translation so it's not done by humans, it's never done by humans. Everyone who works with MT is an MT editor. But my point is that decent MT doesn't necessarily provide word for word translation or awkward sentences (generally spoken, of course there's always some editing work left to do and in some cases a lot. But in general MT is a big help for a lot of text types).
| | | | William Yang
China
Local time: 03:29
Member (2021)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| Machine translation is not our enemy | Nov 21, 2022 |
Machine translation has strengths we try not to admit, but it's the future if it can think logically and wisely. We need to work with MT and translators have to prove to be better and it is easy to find fault with MT right now.
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| Here we go again... take it or leave it | Nov 21, 2022 |
Why is this brought up again? Obviously nothing new has happened to (dis)prove either viewpoint.
Those who have used the advantages of MT will continue to do so, while the luddites will stand by the old featherwriting ways. I've read Proz.forums for a year only, and I already don't see anything new or productive in PEMT discussions anymore...
One interesting thing though would be to share examples of MT producing really funny stuff, just for a laugh. Something like 'ball cock' (e.g... See more Why is this brought up again? Obviously nothing new has happened to (dis)prove either viewpoint.
Those who have used the advantages of MT will continue to do so, while the luddites will stand by the old featherwriting ways. I've read Proz.forums for a year only, and I already don't see anything new or productive in PEMT discussions anymore...
One interesting thing though would be to share examples of MT producing really funny stuff, just for a laugh. Something like 'ball cock' (e.g. ball-shaped faucet) translated into Swedish as 'kulkuk' (ask you Swedish speaking friends what 'kuk' means...). Such things will never be solved by MT, but that's what the protein-based processors are here for. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Does a subscription buy you access to a database of actually good translations? | Nov 21, 2022 |
The problem with MT is that its intellectual input into the translation is zero. If it can utilize your own (or someone else's) best practices to create new translations, the better, but I have never found it helpful. I can do certain jobs quickly when the source text is something I've translated earlier, but all I need for that is a CAT tool. And life still keeps throwing new things my way, so there's probably no way I'll be able to relax in the near future (no rest for the wicked). Our managem... See more The problem with MT is that its intellectual input into the translation is zero. If it can utilize your own (or someone else's) best practices to create new translations, the better, but I have never found it helpful. I can do certain jobs quickly when the source text is something I've translated earlier, but all I need for that is a CAT tool. And life still keeps throwing new things my way, so there's probably no way I'll be able to relax in the near future (no rest for the wicked). Our management outsources some translations to a company that is known to be cheap and fast, so I do get to read some human translations that are worse than MT output (about the same level of 'translation thought' plus tons of human-specific quirks that can jump at you from any spot in the text; I told the managers many times that "cheap + fast + good = does not exist" and that those folks simply can't do any job properly and will never learn, but I guess they'll still keep getting orders and giving me a hard time on the editing front). Will anything change if I buy access to a paid MT engine? I don't think so, but that's just me. I used to translate (or edit translations of) quite a few standards and legal documents, and one thing about such texts is that you can find translated versions of them online, but the translations are always remarkably crappy, even things like standard ISO forewords and introductions get effed up. So, I can only know a particular standard has been translated decently if I've translated it myself (or maybe I'm overestimating the quality of my work and my translations are also crap). Buying an MT subscription that will give me access to some of the best translations out there, well-researched and well-written, plus an MT engine that will know how to translate "sections" as rolled steel products without turning them into document sections, urban areas, cross-sectional views, or parts of something... sounds too good to be true
[Edited at 2022-11-21 15:10 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Kaspars Melkis 
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:29
English to Latvian
+ ...
| don't rely on future estimates | Nov 22, 2022 |
William Yang wrote:
Machine translation has strengths we try not to admit, but it's the future if it can think logically and wisely. We need to work with MT and translators have to prove to be better and it is easy to find fault with MT right now.
The problem is that there are too many promises that may not necessarily come true in near future (in next few years).
Just think that MT is basically built on previous texts. In some areas with low original content such as birth certificates or weather forecasts, it will work fine. But anything with new scientific, artistic, even technical insights will be difficult to translate because of lack of available previous examples.
I often translate texts about new or even experimental medicines. Sometimes the texts contain ideas that haven't existed in the target language (e.g., medicine use reviews in Latvia). You have to understand these ideas first before you are able to translate them.
Maybe some translators don't dare to accept such challenging texts and are perfectly happy to work on MTPE. Each to his own. Any job can be profitable and useful. But what I don't like is that many vendors try to force MTPE indiscriminately even when it really is not fit for purpose. And the constant expectation that just a little and it will be as good as professional human translation. The truth is that it won't be for many decades at least.
Just see how these promises have worked in the past. Theranos promised quick blood tests from the drop of the blood. It was a vapourware and now Elizabeth Holmes is sentenced to 10 years for fraud. The technology itself was quite promising and many studies are being done but it is not ready for widespread use yet.
The same is about self-driving cars. In some controlled circumstances and with limited speed it can work. Elon Musk was selling self-driving add-on with promises that it will be ready by 2019. It wasn't and still we don't know when it will be ready. I am now driving on icy Latvian roads and I wonder how long it will take for cars to drive themselves without any human input there?
Many people believed these promises and paid a lot of money. The same happened to translators who got carried away with CAT tools (I personally dislike Trados because it forces focus on individual sentences that it is harder to think about the text as a whole). Maybe they forgot that translators don't translate words but use words to express meaning?
[Edited at 2022-11-22 11:40 GMT]
| | | | William Yang
China
Local time: 03:29
Member (2021)
English to Chinese
+ ...
So be focused and be prepared and updated for new knowledge. Language is at the front, always.
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| Fundamental misconception | Nov 22, 2022 |
Don't see MT as your fellow colleague! It's a tool!!!! Nothing more, nothing less.
[Edited at 2022-11-22 13:40 GMT]
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:29
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Let's hope nobody ever invents MTPE software. Then we'd really be finished-
| | | | expressisverbis
Portugal
Local time: 19:29
Member (2015)
English to Portuguese
+ ...
| Yes, it really stinks... | Nov 22, 2022 |
... to see the same old discussion over and over again.
Machine translation it's just an "assistant", and the key is to know how to use it in the right way. If we don't, it is obvious our experience will be frustrating.
If it stinks don't use it, end of story.
| | | | | MTPE software? | Nov 23, 2022 |
Way too complicated! I've now heard that major translation agencies already sign organ donation contracts with their most experienced (and cheapest) translators to get their brains when they have passed away. The goal is to stimulate and reuse the linguistic areas of their brains with areas still containing the vast treasure of experience they collected during their lifetime. It is still only a question of two interfaces how to instill the linguistic input and how to catch the automatically corr... See more Way too complicated! I've now heard that major translation agencies already sign organ donation contracts with their most experienced (and cheapest) translators to get their brains when they have passed away. The goal is to stimulate and reuse the linguistic areas of their brains with areas still containing the vast treasure of experience they collected during their lifetime. It is still only a question of two interfaces how to instill the linguistic input and how to catch the automatically corrected output.
[Bearbeitet am 2022-11-23 07:16 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Kaspars Melkis
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:29
English to Latvian
+ ...
| we need to talk more about MTPE | Nov 23, 2022 |
expressisverbis wrote:
... to see the same old discussion over and over again.
Machine translation it's just an "assistant", and the key is to know how to use it in the right way. If we don't, it is obvious our experience will be frustrating.
If it stinks don't use it, end of story.
I am not really sure why are you trying to shut down the debate about using MTPE in translation process? The whole industry is dedicated in promotion of this tool and in my opinion there is not enough critique and unbiased evaluation of it.
It is not enough to mention anecdotes where MT fails (although they can help to identify possible areas of research), nor do a superficial evaluation if the text reads as native. The greatest danger is that the text may seem fluent but be misleading in subtle ways that can decrease overall comprehension and in case of medicine even cause safety risks. We need many more studies to evaluate areas where MTPE can be used and where they are not fit for purpose.
If anything, we are talking too little about MTPE considering that almost every translator thinks that for better or worse MTPE has disrupted translation industry.
| | | | | It doesn't even stink now! That said... | Nov 23, 2022 |
I think the debate has changed in the past year or so. The majority seem to have gone from "over my dead body" to "what's the best way I can use it?".
People I respect are calling MT a "useful tool".
This has changed how I view it too. I haven't had much exposure, but the odd bits I've seen have been worryingly good.
I suspect most of my work will never be done by machines, but a good 25% could probably be done adequately by MT even now.
But...... See more I think the debate has changed in the past year or so. The majority seem to have gone from "over my dead body" to "what's the best way I can use it?".
People I respect are calling MT a "useful tool".
This has changed how I view it too. I haven't had much exposure, but the odd bits I've seen have been worryingly good.
I suspect most of my work will never be done by machines, but a good 25% could probably be done adequately by MT even now.
But... well... I remain firmly in the "over my dead body" camp. I'm an artist, darling, not a machine. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Lieven Malaise
Belgium
Local time: 20:29
Member (2020)
French to Dutch
+ ...
| Overcomplicating | Nov 23, 2022 |
Kaspars Melkis wrote:
The greatest danger is that the text may seem fluent but be misleading in subtle ways that can decrease overall comprehension and in case of medicine even cause safety risks. We need many more studies to evaluate areas where MTPE can be used and where they are not fit for purpose.
You are overcomplicating things, while it is actually really simple: it's the job of the MTPE editor to eliminate all those subtle errors. If a translation passes while it contains several errors, the editor hasn't done his job properly. The same goes for a translator who doesn't 'officially' do MTPE work, but uses MT as a basis for his own translations: it's his or her responsibility to make sure the translation is as good as a human translation from scratch. If a translator isn't able to do that, then he just isn't fit for the job.
This is really in no way different from the situation until recently, in which you had good translators and and an awful lot more incompetent ones.
A lot of words to repeat what expressisverbis said: MT is only as valuable as the person who uses it. It's a tool that demands skill. Give the tool in the hands of a fool and you'll get foolish results.
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