| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18] > | Moving on from freelance translation, starting a new career Thread poster: James Greenfield
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| A collective responsibility: yes. | Feb 22 |
Christopher Schröder wrote:
Surely the problem is the chickenshit translators who accept big-agency prices and practices, MTPE and the rest?
They got themselves into this mess and are now making life harder for everyone.
I understand why, but they made that choice, so is it fair to make their struggles a collective responsibility?
You've essentially highlighted the core issue: "They make life harder for everyone."
This indicates that the actions of a significant segment of the market have repercussions for the entire community.
On the top of that, we also need to acknowledge that many translators find themselves without alternative means to support themselves financially. The power disparity between employer and employee, particularly where the employer dictates terms, is precisely why unions were formed.
| | | | Lieven Malaise
Belgium
Local time: 15:58
Member (2020)
French to Dutch
+ ...
Carlos A R de Souza wrote:
The power disparity between employer and employee, particularly where the employer dictates terms, is precisely why unions were formed.
Except that agencies/direct clients aren't employers and freelancers aren't employees.
[Bijgewerkt op 2024-02-22 15:00 GMT]
| | | | | Technically correct! BUT... | Feb 22 |
Lieven Malaise wrote:
Except that agencies/direct clients aren't employers and freelancers aren't employees.
You are absolutely correct. They aren't in the strict sense of the word.
However, it still stands that there is an imbalance in these dynamics, and one of the core reasons there has been a race to the bottom.
That is the main point here, and this is why translators must unite.
[Edited at 2024-02-22 14:55 GMT]
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Carlos A R de Souza wrote:
Statistically, at least half of this forum's members fall into the average category. But there's a common tendency to perceive oneself as unique or superior to the average,
As you say, we can't presume anything about anyone else, but I suspect most forum contributors are actually above average, because we are still here and have time to post. Similarly, the law of averages suggests that most of those who have already had to quit were below average. This bodes well for the rest of us.
The fact that no direct client has ever asked me for a discount for repetitions in the 20+ years since CAT came along suggests a level of ignorance or inertia that could also serve us well in the coming years.
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Gregory Thomas (X)
United States
Local time: 08:58
English to Greek
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| Some things are possible | Feb 22 |
Christopher Schröder wrote: The fact that no direct client has ever asked me for a discount for repetitions...
Exactly what I've been saying - in most cases, agencies still charge the whole thing. And I know prices and contracts, because I happen to be an end-client rep myself.
"Unionization" is impossible, we reached that conclusion many years ago. What's very useful, is to inform translators about how much the end-client pays. It's weird that translators don't know. That's all that's needed. Then sit back and watch what happens.
| | | | Lieven Malaise
Belgium
Local time: 15:58
Member (2020)
French to Dutch
+ ...
| Technically correct | Feb 22 |
Carlos A R de Souza wrote:
You are absolutely correct. They aren't in the strict sense of the word.
However, it still stands that there is an imbalance in these dynamics, and one of the core reasons there has been a race to the bottom.
That is the main point here, and this is why translators must unite.
[Edited at 2024-02-22 14:55 GMT]
Technically correct, but it makes all the difference. Employees within a company are to a certain extent in the same boat and have leveraging power, freelancers simply aren't and haven't, which is why I believe there never will be any sort of union.
"Let's go an a strike and earn nothing!". That problem aside, the rats from the other boats will hurry to take your place. What could possibly go wrong?
| | | | | United we fall, divided we stand? | Feb 22 |
Carlos A R de Souza wrote:
However, it still stands that there is an imbalance in these dynamics, and one of the core reasons there has been a race to the bottom.
Are you sure that the big agencies are taking good translators down with them in their race to the bottom, rather than gradually moving down the food chain of translators and leaving the better and bolder translators behind to clean up?
That is the main point here, and this is why translators must unite.
But how do you expect them to do that?
And why? I have stood up to the big agencies all on my own for 30 years. I can't be the only one doing so.
| | | | | For the 74th time... :-) | Feb 22 |
Lefteris Kritikakis wrote:
What's very useful, is to inform translators about how much the end-client pays. It's weird that translators don't know.
What makes you think they don't?
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Lieven Malaise
Belgium
Local time: 15:58
Member (2020)
French to Dutch
+ ...
Lefteris Kritikakis wrote:
It's weird that translators don't know.
I can't speak for other countries, but in my language territory (Belgium and the Netherlands) there are quite a few agency websites that provide an automatic price calcualation engine that everybody can use. Furthermore there is information available about the average rates agencies ask (it seems to be from 0,15 - 0,25 for the most specialist translations or most expensive language pairs).
So why do you think translators don't know?
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Carlos A R de Souza wrote:
Christopher Schröder wrote:
They got themselves into this mess and are now making life harder for everyone.
You've essentially highlighted the core issue: "They make life harder for everyone."
This indicates that the actions of a significant segment of the market have repercussions for the entire community.
I thought we had agreed there were no Universal Truths?
There is almost certainly a market segment where translation providers are perceived as essentially interchangeable, so if one refuses to play ball, there are plenty more who will. But I'm not sure it applies absolutely everywhere. Such as perhaps the clients who perceive that Chris' own services are worth paying double to secure?
Carlos also wrote On the top of that, we also need to acknowledge that many translators find themselves without alternative means to support themselves financially.
Here I am less sympathetic. Any decent translator (& maybe that qualifier is important) will almost certainly have some knowledge and skills that can be used elsewhere, and if that is not the case, they will definitely have the brains to be able to acquire them. This may not apply to "chickenshit translators", who no doubt have caused harm to certain segments of the industry.
| | | | Gregory Thomas (X)
United States
Local time: 08:58
English to Greek
+ ...
| It's in here in the forums... | Feb 22 |
Christopher Schröder wrote:
Lefteris Kritikakis wrote:
What's very useful, is to inform translators about how much the end-client pays. It's weird that translators don't know.
What makes you think they don't?
It's in here in the forums. Most of them think that the end-client pays 30% up or so. They don't know. One former PM posted in another thread recently that in her agency they would markup 100%. Well, that was a good agency then. In reality the more aggressive agencies markup at 200% - 350% on average (I've seen personally one case of 417% but that was on the package total). It all depends on how much the translator is willing to accept - you agree with that.
But the translator would have a different mindset if he knew that the end-client paid 0.25 and he accepted 0.05. And that the "ordinary minimum charge" nowadays is $95-$110.
It doesn't matter if you say "I charge this and that and don't get out of bed etc". We're talking about what the majority charges and what the majority believes. As far as the Proz "rate calculator", it's garbage for serfs.
[Edited at 2024-02-22 15:33 GMT]
| | | | Gregory Thomas (X)
United States
Local time: 08:58
English to Greek
+ ...
Lieven Malaise wrote: there are quite a few agency websites that provide an automatic price calcualation engine that everybody can use... (it seems to be from 0,15 - 0,25 for the most specialist translations or most expensive language pairs). So why do you think translators don't know?
These prices in the calculators are to get the client through the door to initiate contact. They are "bare minimum" for straight text not needing anything else, and only 1 step.
Then starts the party: "you need proofreading and QM and formatting too?" etc etc. For proofreading they charge $100 for a text that pays the proofreader $20-$25 (the more aggressive agencies, $15).
On top of that (different topic) we have the negotiating/betting platforms: "Take it now at $10 or it will be gone in two seconds!".
Even the good agencies caved after that - for them to be competitive, they have to follow the big shark.
How about a separate PROZ section informing the translators what are end-client prices on average, more or less? And how about translators also diversifying their income? Both good suggestions I think.
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| Can you list a few examples? | Feb 22 |
Charlie Bavington wrote:
Here I am less sympathetic. Any decent translator (& maybe that qualifier is important) will almost certainly have some knowledge and skills that can be used elsewhere, and if that is not the case, they will definitely have the brains to be able to acquire them. This may not apply to "chickenshit translators", who no doubt have caused harm to certain segments of the industry.
Could you list sectors within the translation industry where translators possess significant bargaining power due to their irreplaceability, especially in comparison to other areas?
I've considered highly specialized fields such as aerospace, although I'm aware this may not be the primary focus of platforms like Proz. Are there other sectors I might be overlooking?
| | | | Gregory Thomas (X)
United States
Local time: 08:58
English to Greek
+ ...
| The Real Calculator | Feb 22 |
Lieven Malaise wrote: (it seems to be from 0,15 - 0,25 for the most specialist translations or most expensive language pairs).
Ok, let's say average $20 (that's actually a cheap project).
--
1000 word project:
-- Client pays Translation $200 [translator receives $80, from what I see in the forums 0.08/word]
-- Client pays Proofreading $100 [proofreader receives $25, that's the ordinary average for most US agencies now]
-- Client pays QM $80 [QM receives $20, that's the ordinary average for most US agencies now]
TOTALS:
Client pays $380, the entire team receives $125. What's the markup please?
See now why agencies are popping up everywhere like mushrooms?
| | | | Lieven Malaise
Belgium
Local time: 15:58
Member (2020)
French to Dutch
+ ...
Lefteris Kritikakis wrote:
Lieven Malaise wrote: there are quite a few agency websites that provide an automatic price calcualation engine that everybody can use... (it seems to be from 0,15 - 0,25 for the most specialist translations or most expensive language pairs). So why do you think translators don't know?
These prices in the calculators are to get the client through the door to initiate contact. They are "bare minimum" for straight text not needing anything else, and only 1 step.
Then starts the party: "you need proofreading and QM and formatting too?" etc etc. For proofreading they charge $100 for a text that pays the proofreader $20-$25 (the more aggressive agencies, $15).
On top of that (different topic) we have the negotiating/betting platforms: "Take it now at $10 or it will be gone in two seconds!".
Even the good agencies caved after that - for them to be competitive, they have to follow the big shark.
How about a separate PROZ section informing the translators what are end-client prices on average, more or less? And how about translators also diversifying their income? Both good suggestions I think.
You don't even read or comsider what people write, but prefer to continue your endless rants repeating yourself a zillion times in the process.
I give up.
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