| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | Multilingual translators sought Thread poster: Evert DELOOF-SYS
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Obviously, I forgot to mention that we speak Italian at home (myself and my wife... we met in Italy, so we always spoke to each other in Italian). We speak English to the children, at home. They speak English at school. Sometimes, I speak Italian to them. They read Italian books and watch Italian videos as well, so I presume they must understand something! We also have Italian TV. We teach them Italian, not in a intensive way, but we do. Now, I suppose you can speak both Spanish and English... a... See more Obviously, I forgot to mention that we speak Italian at home (myself and my wife... we met in Italy, so we always spoke to each other in Italian). We speak English to the children, at home. They speak English at school. Sometimes, I speak Italian to them. They read Italian books and watch Italian videos as well, so I presume they must understand something! We also have Italian TV. We teach them Italian, not in a intensive way, but we do. Now, I suppose you can speak both Spanish and English... and your wife/husband? (Sorry, but Andrea is one of those names... it\'s a male name in Italy, so I\'m not really sure! Is it a male name in Spanish as well? But, if you were born in Britain , then you would be a woman!) Is he/she Argentinian? I presume.... Your life is going to be very complicated in Montreal! They\'ll have to learn French as well. But I think it won\'t be a problem. Young kids learn very quickly and if you speak to them in both languages already, they should be ok. At the beginning - at school, for example - they might have problems and my concern would be that they might learn at a slower pace than the other kids. It takes some time for the brain to master 3 languages. Eventually, they\'ll be fluent in all three, although I would be a bit worried about their writing skills. You see, the reason why I\'m not raising my kids \"bilingual\" is because I want them to have a predominant language. Being a translator and living abroad I\'m very aware of the danger of losing your language skills and - even worse - your identity. That\'s why I want them to be British in the first place, I want them to have a firm identity and then they can speak Italian, understand it and make themselves understood. I don\'t see any advantages at being bilingual, only disadvantages. My wife, for example, speaks very good Italian, she has no problems at all in Italy, but she is not bilingual.. close, but not. My kids can do the same, have the best of both worlds, without going through that painstaking process that is bilingualism. I might be wrong, obviously, but my kids are very happy and confident. I have seen so-called bilingual children and I can tell you, sometimes they are pretty f***** up!
Andrea, if you are raising your children bilingual, please carry on doing so, because these are just my opinions and they are not based on any scientific studies!!!
Good luck with the move!
Giovanni
[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-01-19 16:15 ]
[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-01-19 16:25 ] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO) (X)
Local time: 02:08
German to English
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| Excellent points, Giovanni | Jan 19, 2002 |
Bilinguals and trilinguals will end up being really messed up, unless they slam on the brakes early on.
That is why everyone should and must focus on his/her dominant language - there is no other way.
Sure, that language can change over time and for different reasons, but at any given point in time, you have only one such dominant language, and that is the one you should translate into.
Most of us have translated into another langua... See more Bilinguals and trilinguals will end up being really messed up, unless they slam on the brakes early on.
That is why everyone should and must focus on his/her dominant language - there is no other way.
Sure, that language can change over time and for different reasons, but at any given point in time, you have only one such dominant language, and that is the one you should translate into.
Most of us have translated into another language as well, but it should not become the norm. It is this practice that has resulted in atrocious translations (with no end in sight, sadly).
However, I also see the merits in a person doing bi-directional translations in a limited number of subject areas, but having 3 ACTIVE languages is impossible (no matter how hard some people may protest). And even a talented, highly-skilled bi-directional translator has only one dominant language. No two, three, four, etc. languages are equally strong. It is a fact of life, and no \"multilingual translator\" will be able to change that. As a matter of fact, anyone who claims to be able to produce the same level of quality into 3 or 4 active languages is nothing but a liar and deceives their clients. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Thanks, Giovanni... | Jan 20, 2002 |
Thanks for painting a better picture for me. Obviously I forgot to include some rather basic info myself (I just thought you’d notice from my icon I’m a girl...  ). Both my husband and I are Argentinian (I’ve lived here all my life, he lived in Montreal for 7 years). We’re not raising the kids bilingual but we do speak to them in English and French, on and off.
Now, I don’t have any reason to believe my children will... See more Thanks for painting a better picture for me. Obviously I forgot to include some rather basic info myself (I just thought you’d notice from my icon I’m a girl... ). Both my husband and I are Argentinian (I’ve lived here all my life, he lived in Montreal for 7 years). We’re not raising the kids bilingual but we do speak to them in English and French, on and off.
Now, I don’t have any reason to believe my children will want to be translators, so I’m just thinking about their ability to function in the three languages they will grow up learning (they are a three-year-old girl and an 18-months-old boy). What I do find especially valuable in your comment is the issue of identity: since we’re leaving Argentina as part of the mass exodus you may have heard about, I find it rather hard to accept they will not be Argentinian, but in all likelihood we won’t be coming back any time soon, at least not to stay, and they are already Canadian citizens after all... I guess I’ll have to deal with my own issues regarding the move, and at the same time read up a lot on bilingualism (and on how to raise properly messed up bilingual or trilingual kids ), before making a decision.
Again, thanks for sharing your experience and giving me much food for thought.
Andrea
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| | | | | "Messed up" bilingual children | Jan 20, 2002 |
Hi Giovanni and Andrea,
Very interesting comments! I do not presume to \"know better\" about your situations, but when we had our daughter, we consulted a linguist friend, who suggested that the prevailing opinion about the best way to teach children two (or more) languages is to have one parent speak one language consistently - my husband speaks English to my daughter and I speak Latvian to her, even in an English-speaking environment. We are not teaching her German, although we both ... See more Hi Giovanni and Andrea,
Very interesting comments! I do not presume to \"know better\" about your situations, but when we had our daughter, we consulted a linguist friend, who suggested that the prevailing opinion about the best way to teach children two (or more) languages is to have one parent speak one language consistently - my husband speaks English to my daughter and I speak Latvian to her, even in an English-speaking environment. We are not teaching her German, although we both speak it. We are in the US, so her dominant language will be English. How do you manage to speak sometimes one and sometimes the other just out of curiosity? I think that would be hard for me, but I speak such a minority language (only just over 2 million speakers!) that there is a preservation aspect in there as well, especially considering the dominance of English. I also think reinforcing the non-dominant lang. with other media is a great help, i.e. videos, books, etc. like Giovanni mentioned.
A question to you both: when did your children distinguish clearly between the two langs.? My daughter is 2 and she still speaks in a mixture of both or answers in English when I speak Latvian. My mother said we sorted this out at around 3 yrs. What is your experience?
Great to hear from kindred parents, even though this is off topic!
Daina
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| parenting children is difficult, let alone when we try to teach them 4 languages! | Jan 22, 2002 |
I\'m not actually sure when children can tell two languages apart, since I\'m not raising my kids bilingual! I think it\'s around the age of 4 or 5, although some friends\' kid - who is six - still answers his dad in English. I know that the best scenario for raising children bilingual is when the mother lives in the foreign country and speaks to them in her own language. This, apparently, is because when they are very young, kids tend to establish a stronger relationship with their mother. So, ... See more I\'m not actually sure when children can tell two languages apart, since I\'m not raising my kids bilingual! I think it\'s around the age of 4 or 5, although some friends\' kid - who is six - still answers his dad in English. I know that the best scenario for raising children bilingual is when the mother lives in the foreign country and speaks to them in her own language. This, apparently, is because when they are very young, kids tend to establish a stronger relationship with their mother. So, you are in the perfect situation. I don\'t know how long you\'ve been living in the USA, but I can switch from English to Italian with no problems at all. I wouldn\'t call myself bilingual, though. That your daughter speaks to you in English is not surprising; she\'ll probably start speaking Latvian when she is about 5 or 6. The only problem I envisage is that once your daughter will realize that you can speak English, she might not want to talk to you in Latvian when she is young, maybe because she wants to be \"normal\" or because of peer pressure. That will change, I\'m sure.
All in all, it\'s a fascinating experience. Maybe I\'m taking the easy way out!
Giovanni ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Hi, Daina... | Jan 22, 2002 |
I think there\'s very little I can add to Giovanni\'s comment. My children are too young to be able to tell two languages apart, and up to now we weren\'t even raising them bilingual. Now that we\'re moving to Montreal, we\'ll speak Spanish at home (preservation is part of it, as in your case, except it\'s not preservation of a language, since Spanish is very much alive and kicking, but preservation of our roots), and I\'m only beginning to read up on the schooling system there, but I guess they... See more I think there\'s very little I can add to Giovanni\'s comment. My children are too young to be able to tell two languages apart, and up to now we weren\'t even raising them bilingual. Now that we\'re moving to Montreal, we\'ll speak Spanish at home (preservation is part of it, as in your case, except it\'s not preservation of a language, since Spanish is very much alive and kicking, but preservation of our roots), and I\'m only beginning to read up on the schooling system there, but I guess they will focus on either English or French at school, and the other language they will pick up from friends, TV, etc.
Up to now, since we thought we were going to stay in Argentina, we spoke in Spanish most of the time, but bathtimes, meals and such were often in English, and sometimes greetings and prayers too; we often read to them in English or French, got them videos in English... the usual, I guess. It will be a whole new ballgame from now on.
Thanks for adding to this off-topic but fascinating subject... I don\'t know about Giovanni, but I\'m still waiting for the lynching!
Andrea ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Keeping languages separate | Jan 23, 2002 |
OK, here\'s our situation: My husband is a US citizen, I\'m a UK citizen and our daughter (3) was born over here in Germany. We are very strict with her that English is the language to be spoken to Mum and Dad, but it is obvious that German is her \"play\" language. Sometimes she tries to throw in the odd German word \"Mummy, I\'ve made you an Überraschung\" - sometimes to bug me and sometimes because she genuinely doesn\'t know the English word (she does the same the other way round too - I he... See more OK, here\'s our situation: My husband is a US citizen, I\'m a UK citizen and our daughter (3) was born over here in Germany. We are very strict with her that English is the language to be spoken to Mum and Dad, but it is obvious that German is her \"play\" language. Sometimes she tries to throw in the odd German word \"Mummy, I\'ve made you an Überraschung\" - sometimes to bug me and sometimes because she genuinely doesn\'t know the English word (she does the same the other way round too - I heard her tell her friend \"Ich habe einen neuen Night-Gown\")...
But when she turns round and says something to me in German, I just tell her to say it to me in English - and she does!!! And if she doesn\'t know the word she\'s trying to find in English then I ask her if that\'s the problem, tell her the word and off we go! So I think that she can easily differentiate between the two languages .
Having said that, I don\'t want her to be a translator. It\'s my job because I love it, but I don\'t think that bilingual people always make good translators. At this stage I just want her to be able to communicate with her US/UK relatives and to be able to use her English as an asset later on in her professional career.
Perhaps we ought to start a separate thread for bilingual parenting issue (or did I see one a while back? - why\'s there no search function for the forums  )
Alison ▲ Collapse
| | | | | the perfect balance... | Jan 23, 2002 |
Alison... speaking one language at home and another one at school/play time... Perfect! I think you are right when you \"force\" your child to speak English at home; that\'s the only way she will keep learning your language and absorbe your culture. One question: has she got and English or an American accent?
We should have a bilingualism thread on this forum... also a forum for translators with kids!!! I have four, so I will be the fir... See more Alison... speaking one language at home and another one at school/play time... Perfect! I think you are right when you \"force\" your child to speak English at home; that\'s the only way she will keep learning your language and absorbe your culture. One question: has she got and English or an American accent?
We should have a bilingualism thread on this forum... also a forum for translators with kids!!! I have four, so I will be the first one in the queue.
One last consideration... when I said I didn\'t want my kids to be bilingual, it wasn\'t because I want them to become translators, but because of the bilingualism itself, which I find has more disadvantages than advantages.
Giovanni ▲ Collapse
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Karin Walker (X) 
Germany
Local time: 08:08
German to English
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| I am the product of such a family... | Jan 23, 2002 |
I was born as the eldest of two daughters to a German mother and an English father in England. Dad spoke English to us, Mum used German. I still have an audiotape from when I was three and my sister was one, speaking to Mum and Oma and Opa (in Germany), on the phone. When we were asked about anything to do with Germany, we’d reply in German, even if asked in English. Conversely, anything to do with kindergarten, the neighbours‘ kids etc – our daily environment – was in English. (I l... See more I was born as the eldest of two daughters to a German mother and an English father in England. Dad spoke English to us, Mum used German. I still have an audiotape from when I was three and my sister was one, speaking to Mum and Oma and Opa (in Germany), on the phone. When we were asked about anything to do with Germany, we’d reply in German, even if asked in English. Conversely, anything to do with kindergarten, the neighbours‘ kids etc – our daily environment – was in English. (I later did a lot of research on this as part of a cognitive science course, and apparently this is very common – at a certain stage of their development, most bilingual kids choose their language by association with things around them).
We moved away to Germany when I was eight and were put in German school as my parents believed that we’d never learn German properly in international school. We spoke a little German but not very well – I clearly remember stuttering my way through my first few weeks and mixing up the genders and words. But my mum says that within 4 weeks we were fully fluent and that’s never left us.
My wee sister, who was six when we left, never fully recovered her English after German took over – her pronunciation is impeccable but her use of the language is clearly influenced by German (tenses, vocabulary etc.). She even (still!) speaks Bavarian dialect which we both did as kids. I went back to the UK to study for 5 years and realised that when I came back I was still bilingual – but English had taken over as my dominant language. I speak German without a trace of an accent, read and understand like a native – but my written German lacks that little bit of inspiration and style. It tries to be concise and elegant, like English – and that is exactly what makes it un-native-like. Today I am an interpreter (what else!) and translator but will only ever translate into English (unless it’s something quite simple).
I know this is going way off on a tangent but the last post I read asked about a bilingual (parenting) forum. Maybe that would be taking it too far on ProZ but until recently I followed a fantastic forum on bilingual parenting (I think it was on yahoogroups, but can’t find it anymore). Maybe some of the other ProZ members know which one I mean and can post the address. It was moderated by a husband and wife team in Scandinavia, I think.
Finally, I just wanted to say that our example, at least, shows that there is a limited amount that parents can do to keep up their kids’ languages. Although my sister and I had practically the same environment, various (incl. social) factors led to me retaining my languages but my sister losing them. My parents always made a point of keeping them both active through visits home, TV/videos, books, games etc., but in the end we decided for ourselves.
Sorry about the length of this post, I could go on about multi-lingual development for ages. It’s a fascinating subject.
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| | | | | I would like to say something about the original topic... | Jan 23, 2002 |
I took the trouble to check out the webpage of the \"consulting agency\" that originally posted the supertranslator job. I\'ve found that these people are now called \"Venturi,\" either because a) they have been gobbled up by some bigger fish; b) they have changed their name to avoid the wrath of their clients.
We translators find these kind of propositions offensive (with reason, of course), but they stem from mere ignorance about the work of translators among the public.... See more I took the trouble to check out the webpage of the \"consulting agency\" that originally posted the supertranslator job. I\'ve found that these people are now called \"Venturi,\" either because a) they have been gobbled up by some bigger fish; b) they have changed their name to avoid the wrath of their clients.
We translators find these kind of propositions offensive (with reason, of course), but they stem from mere ignorance about the work of translators among the public. No one would try to find a doctor specialized in gynecology, cardiology, ophtalmology and pediatrics, but it never crosses anyone\'s mind that it is ridiculous to look for a translator who can translate technical texts into four different languages. I wish there was a way to educate people about the work of the translator, other than explaining things individually to one\'s friends and acquaintances (that\'s thirsty work!) ▲ Collapse
| | | | Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO) (X)
Local time: 02:08
German to English
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| Amen to that!!!! | Jan 23, 2002 |
Quote:
On 2002-01-23 15:54, Beatriz2 wrote:
I took the trouble to check out the webpage of the \"consulting agency\" that originally posted the supertranslator job. I\'ve found that these people are now called \"Venturi,\" either because a) they have been gobbled up by some bigger fish; b) they have changed their name to avoid the wrath of their clients.
We translators find these kind of propositions offensive
... See more Quote:
On 2002-01-23 15:54, Beatriz2 wrote:
I took the trouble to check out the webpage of the \"consulting agency\" that originally posted the supertranslator job. I\'ve found that these people are now called \"Venturi,\" either because a) they have been gobbled up by some bigger fish; b) they have changed their name to avoid the wrath of their clients.
We translators find these kind of propositions offensive (with reason, of course), but they stem from mere ignorance about the work of translators among the public. No one would try to find a doctor specialized in gynecology, cardiology, ophtalmology and pediatrics, but it never crosses anyone\'s mind that it is ridiculous to look for a translator who can translate technical texts into four different languages. I wish there was a way to educate people about the work of the translator, other than explaining things individually to one\'s friends and acquaintances (that\'s thirsty work!)
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| Language separation - fascinating! | Jan 23, 2002 |
Hi all,
After this, I can move this to another thread if that would be better!
It seems as if although there are certain constants, all kids deal with language separation differently. We spoke only Latvian at home and English in school. When my brother was about 2 or 3, he would say a Latvian word, but pronounce it in English and think that was English! What my daughter does is more like what Alison (hi!) describes: she will mix the two depending on what word she knows bett... See more Hi all,
After this, I can move this to another thread if that would be better!
It seems as if although there are certain constants, all kids deal with language separation differently. We spoke only Latvian at home and English in school. When my brother was about 2 or 3, he would say a Latvian word, but pronounce it in English and think that was English! What my daughter does is more like what Alison (hi!) describes: she will mix the two depending on what word she knows better. At some level, she does distingiush between the two, because when I ask her to say in Latvian the word she just said in English, she can. What she doesn\'t do is speak only Latvian to the Latvian speakers and English to the English speakers. I think she probably sees that all of the Latvian speakers here also speak English. I\'m not worried about this, just interested in language development.
To Andrea: do you have Spanish-speaking friends in Montreal? We have a small group of Latvian parents here who get together for a playgroup once a week; I also attended a Latvian school on Saturdays when I was small (I was born and raised in the US). This really helps, I think, not only culturally, but for the children to see that their family is not \"weird\" and that their language is a living language.
Daina ▲ Collapse
| | | | Karin Walker (X)
Germany
Local time: 08:08
German to English
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Yes, that\'s the right list. I remembered Cindy being in Norway.
I followed the discussions for months and months, but it does become somewhat repetitive due to so many new members. Nevertheless, it\'s well moderated and very interesting indeed.
K.
| | | | Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO) (X)
Local time: 02:08
German to English
+ ...
| Right on, Karin | Jan 24, 2002 |
You are soooooooooo right, Karin: even bilingual people have only one truly dominant language.
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