| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10] > | How bad is declining job after accepting it Thread poster: Annett Roessner
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| Who decides? | Dec 11, 2023 |
Metin Demirel wrote:
It is up to the offended to decide whether it is offending. Several Italian colleagues have so far expressed their discontent about your comment, but not one single Italian has said anything in support of your explanations. You can philosophize as much as you like, but you cannot evade the fact that your initial comment sits perfectly on a stereotype.
Would you care to quote that stereotype you accuse me of having posted? Because I have not.
People can feel offended all they like, but I have not said anything objectively offensive about Italian culture. What seems to offend people is what they imagine I may have meant, not what I have actually said. And then what? Should we accept to be accused of things we haven't said or done? And should we censor ourselves just in case someone wants to feel offended? Absolutely not. Freedom of speech is not a question of voting.
Metin Demirel wrote:
I am also disturbed with the ways the opposing discourse seems to favor all the uncivilized manners and style in disguise of being "not woke, just normal."
Would you care to quote those 'uncivilized manners and style' you are referring to? What I find uncivilised, not to say rude, as to blame someone for something they demonstrably haven't done.
| | | | | Nothing wrong on these pages | Dec 11, 2023 |
Thanks for the links but I cannot see anyone talking bad about Italians on them. You are always free to contact a moderator or support if you think a site or forum rule has been breached.
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Thomas T. Frost wrote:
Thanks for the links but I cannot see anyone talking bad about Italians on them. You are always free to contact a moderator or support if you think a site or forum rule has been breached.
You did not read Baran Keki's posts.
I do not need to contact a moderator, I am able to speak by myself and for my self, also I am a former moderator so I know rules.
Have a good night,
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Angie Garbarino wrote:
You did not read Baran Keki's posts.
Yes, I did, and I can't see anything wrong with them. He's not generalising and saying that Italians in general are working for low rates, which would be a stereotype. He's saying that many do. If he has observed that many do, then he is simply stating a fact, which is not a breach of the rules.
You are free to dislike such statements and say that you dislike them, but you should not go around accusing people of stereotyping or racism if there is no objective and demonstrable basis for doing so. That's an attack, and that is not allowed by the forum rules.
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Baran Keki 
Türkiye
Local time: 09:13
Member
English to Turkish
| As a matter of fact.. | Dec 11, 2023 |
Metin Demirel wrote:
Several Italian colleagues have so far expressed their discontent about your comment, but not one single Italian has said anything in support of your explanations.
A couple of Italian colleagues have steadily agreed with Mr. Frost's explanations, but perhaps chose not get involved in what's shaping up to be an embarrassing debate.
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Thomas T. Frost wrote:
Would you care to quote that stereotype you accuse me of having posted? Because I have not.
I had already said "your initial comment". I am quoting it here:
I can't claim to know much about Italian culture, but if I were a PM, I would prefer the translator simply to be transparent and honest and not appreciate waffle, obfuscation and lies. I would tend to keep the former on board rather than the latter. I'd say this would be the usual approach in the Nordic countries, where "macho" claims of being able to do everything and making up barely credible excuses are generally disliked. A more down-to-earth approach works better in these countries.
You are mentioning some good traits like being "transparent and honest", and some bad ones such as appreciating "waffle, obfuscation and lies", and the conjunction "but" in your sentence negates the those traits for the Italian culture. Then you proceed to bring up a good example, the Nordic countries, where the "usual" approach (not the Italian approach) does not tolerate the "macho" ways (that may be Italian, but not Nordic).
If you had not referred to the Italian culture in your comment, it would be wonderful. You could still boast about being Nordic and not offend anyone. Want to see?
If I were a PM, I would prefer the translator simply to be transparent and honest and not appreciate waffle, obfuscation and lies. I would tend to keep the former on board rather than the latter. I'd say this would be the usual approach in the Nordic countries, where "macho" claims of being able to do everything and making up barely credible excuses are generally disliked. A more down-to-earth approach works better in these countries.
Thomas T. Frost wrote:
Would you care to quote those 'uncivilized manners and style' you are referring to? What I find uncivilised, not to say rude, as to blame someone for something they demonstrably haven't done.
I didn't say you had displayed uncivilized manners and style. I meant to say that I am disturbed with how people turn to blame the woke culture to justify themselves when they are in the wrong. And I felt the need to say that because you brought the woke culture into the discussion, and (to me) you are in the wrong by bringing the Italian culture into the discussion. Yet you stretch the issue to the wokeness and freedom of speech while you obviously don't care to understand why those people might be offended.
[Edited at 2023-12-11 18:15 GMT]
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Baran Keki wrote:
A couple of Italian colleagues have steadily agreed with Mr. Frost's explanations, but perhaps chose not get involved in what's shaping up to be an embarrassing debate.
I failed to see that. I didn't see anything embarrassing here either.
| | | | | United colors | Dec 11, 2023 |
Metin Demirel wrote:
I didn't see anything embarrassing here either.
It might be a little embarrassing for those who translate from English and should therefore be able to understand what has actually been said here in very plain English.
Those who know English less well should perhaps be less ready to jump to conclusions.
In general, here, we are a mixed bunch with different cultures and languages so our default position should be to give people the benefit of the doubt.
That said, I can’t stand the English. Bunch of rude entitled losers. 😂
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Angie Garbarino wrote:
I would really like to understand why Italians and Italian culture are often cited in a negative way, but what have we done? Ok we brought the mafia into the world (actually it's a Sicilian thing, not Italian in general), we have a cumbersome tax system ok. but we have Ferrari, we have the Colosseum, Rome, Florence and Venice, or is it true as they often tell me in Spain that it's because we are "Famous"?. I know a little about the world and I haven't seen any ethical or commercial differences. I'd like you to stop, every time I open any thread I find someone who criticizes Italians.
Can we please?
To the OP. I am glad you solved in that way.
I am Sicilian, by the way, and it would be beyond unfortunate if you just did something akin to what you objected to with Mr Frost, wouldn’t it?
| | | | | No stereotypes there | Dec 11, 2023 |
I can't claim to know much about Italian culture, but
No stereotype there. I just say I don't know much about Italian culture.
if I were a PM, I would prefer the translator simply to be transparent and honest and not appreciate waffle, obfuscation and lies. I would tend to keep the former on board rather than the latter. I'd say this would be the usual approach in the Nordic countries, where "macho" claims of being able to do everything and making up barely c... See more I can't claim to know much about Italian culture, but
No stereotype there. I just say I don't know much about Italian culture.
if I were a PM, I would prefer the translator simply to be transparent and honest and not appreciate waffle, obfuscation and lies. I would tend to keep the former on board rather than the latter. I'd say this would be the usual approach in the Nordic countries, where "macho" claims of being able to do everything and making up barely credible excuses are generally disliked. A more down-to-earth approach works better in these countries.
These are my preferences. I'm allowed to have preferences, aren't I? I am not saying that 'Italians are so and so'. I do say I would not like the suggestion to provide a white lie, not that Italians generally would lie. If you read carefully what I said instead of listening to your own prejudice, you would see that I say that I don't know how Italians would generally do.
Metin Demirel wrote:
and the conjunction "but" in your sentence negates the those traits for the Italian culture.
I am not saying that these traits are general for Italians. That's you own mistaken interpretation. Please just stick to what I wrote.
Metin Demirel wrote:
You could still boast about being Nordic and not offend anyone.
I am not boasting. I am telling about my own preferences and what people in the Nordic countries would generally prefer. Don't accuse me of your own misinterpretations.
Metin Demirel wrote:
I meant to say that I am disturbed with how people turn to blame the woke culture to justify themselves when they are in the wrong.
You say 'people', but since I am the only one who has referred to wokery, it can only relate to me. I have not said anything wrong. You are completely mistaken in your misinterpretation of what I wrote.
Metin Demirel wrote:
(to me) you are in the wrong by bringing the Italian culture into the discussion.
So according to you, the word 'Italian culture' is taboo. There is no such forum rule nor any such convention in wider society. I only said I don't know much about Italian culture. That's all. Then some people went hysterical in their inability to read and understand a simple text written in plain English. I am quite shocked by the lack of linguistic ability displayed by people whose living is translation.
Metin Demirel wrote:
you obviously don't care to understand why those people might be offended.
I don't care to understand their repeated misinterpretations of what I wrote, which won't become correct interpretations no matter how many times they are repeated. I am perfectly entitled to say what I wrote and there was nothing offensive in it nor any stereotypes. It's not because a mob stamp their feet that I have to say that right is wrong.
[Edited at 2023-12-11 19:43 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Maria G. Grassi, M.A. wrote:
I am Sicilian, by the way, and it would be beyond unfortunate if you just did something akin to what you objected to with Mr Frost, wouldn’t it?
I am sorry but this is a matter of fact. Can you deny it? I love Sicilians ans Sicily, but Italian Mafia is Sicilian, Of course there are many nice people there... I know, and I apologize if I offended you
| | | | | Italian Mafia | Dec 11, 2023 |
Angie Garbarino wrote:
Maria G. Grassi, M.A. wrote:
I am Sicilian, by the way, and it would be beyond unfortunate if you just did something akin to what you objected to with Mr Frost, wouldn’t it?
I am sorry but this is a matter of fact. Can you deny it? I love Sicilians ans Sicily, but Italian Mafia is Sicilian, Of course there are many nice people there... I know, and I apologize if I offended you
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organized_crime_in_Italy:
"Organized crime in Italy and its criminal organizations have been prevalent in Italy, especially Southern Italy, for centuries and have affected the social and economic life of many Italian regions since at least the 19th century. There are six major native mafia-like organizations that are heavily active in Italy. The oldest and most powerful of these organizations, having begun to develop between 1500 and 1800, are the 'Ndrangheta from Calabria (currently considered the most powerful criminal organization in the world), the Cosa Nostra from Sicily and the Camorra based in Campania. In addition to these three long-established organizations, there are also three other significantly active organized crime syndicates that were founded in the 20th century: the Stidda of Sicily, and the Sacra Corona Unita and Società foggiana, both from Apulia."
The three highlighted regions are all in mainland Italy. No further comment.
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| Check a map. | Dec 11, 2023 |
Thomas T. Frost wrote:
The three highlighted regions are all in mainland Italy. No further comment.
However, Italy has 20 regions... Check a map.
BUT...If I say you are totally right in ALL your statements can you stop please?
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Angie Garbarino wrote:
I am sorry but this is a matter of fact. Can you deny it? I love Sicilians ans Sicily, but Italian Mafia is Sicilian, Of course there are many nice people there... I know, and I apologize if I offended you
I just found it to be a sort of an ill-advised placement for that statement, as true as it may be, and thought it was a little funny, that’s all.
But I do appreciate your apology, thank you.
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Angie Garbarino wrote:
Thomas T. Frost wrote:
The three highlighted regions are all in mainland Italy. No further comment.
However, Italy has 20 regions... Check a map.
BUT...If I say you are totally right in ALL your statements can you stop please?
You have presumably looked at the map links I posted by now. These three regions are indeed in mainland Italy, contrary to what you first wrote and then deleted. No matter how many other regions there are, these three regions are still in mainland Italy.
And if you just say 'the mafia' without capitalisation, it can just as well have the generic meaning 'a secret organization of criminals that controls many illegal activities, especially in Italy and the US'.
How interesting that you suddenly want to stop after having been caught out in stereotyping Sicily yourself. Need I say more?
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