| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | South African university makes Zulu compulsory
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| | Samuel Murray 
Netherlands
Local time: 02:49
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| Universities... | May 20, 2013 |
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
Samuel Murray wrote:
Most [universities in South Africa] are public institutions, and they are structured around the needs of the country.
This is exactly the mistake: Universities should not focus on covering the "needs of the country" ... Universities should instead be devoted to knowledge and science, as well as the development of the students as individuals...
This is a very odd notion of what a university should be. What you're essentially saying (if you follow the logic) is that universities should be play grounds and hobby fields for the rich and privileged.
Public universities are funded by the country's tax system, and even study fees are heavily subsidised by the state. The state is investing thousands of its currency into the eduation of students at a university, and it would make no sense (from an economic point of view) to say that the primary purpose of such an investment is not to provide the necessary skills for the country's development but for the individual pleasure of those who were lucky enough to be chosen.
It is true that universities also contribute to "knowledge and science", but that only happens at post-graduate level, and it is really a by-product of the process of training students in skills that they will use for the benefit of the country in which they live.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 02:49
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| Do you have a URL for that? | May 20, 2013 |
Sarai Pahla wrote:
I've just heard that actually they have abolished the system as of this year and are teaching in English from the outset.
Do you have a URL for that? I could not confirm it.
I know that prior to 2009, schools taught English only from grade 3 (and all subjects are taught in English from grade 4), and since 2009, schools teach English from grade 1 (and all subjects are taught in English from grade 4). If there are schools where non-English native children are taught in English from grade 1, then I would love to see some evidence of it.
I think it would be better to start teaching in English from as early an age as possible.
Many parents feel the same way.
| | | | | Do you have a URL for that? | May 20, 2013 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
Do you have a URL for that? I could not confirm it.
I know that prior to 2009, schools taught English only from grade 3 (and all subjects are taught in English from grade 4), and since 2009, schools teach English from grade 1 (and all subjects are taught in English from grade 4). If there are schools where non-English native children are taught in English from grade 1, then I would love to see some evidence of it.
I'm not sure if I didn't submit my previous comment, but I spoke to a subject advisor for English and didn't find the information online - I'll ask and get back to you if there is some firm confirmation.
Thanks,
Sarai
| | | | | The oddest reasoning I ever heard | May 20, 2013 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
Samuel Murray wrote:
Most [universities in South Africa] are public institutions, and they are structured around the needs of the country.
This is exactly the mistake: Universities should not focus on covering the "needs of the country" ... Universities should instead be devoted to knowledge and science, as well as the development of the students as individuals...
Public universities are funded by the country's tax system, and even study fees are heavily subsidised by the state. The state is investing thousands of its currency into the eduation of students at a university, and it would make no sense (from an economic point of view) to say that the primary purpose of such an investment is not to provide the necessary skills for the country's development but for the individual pleasure of those who were lucky enough to be chosen.
You make it sound like access to university is granted in a lottery or is purchased with cash. I sincerely hope neither of these is the case in South Africa. In most countries, access to university is granted by merit and capacity, as proven by marks and achievements in previous educational stages, since the state has to allocate resources in a sensible way and cannot grant access to university to everyone. In most countries, and depending on the resources available, good students have public grants or benefits to help them in their higher studies.
You seem to imply (correct me if I am wrong) that universities' goal should be to train workers, not to promote knowledge and science in its purest form. Training manpower is clearly not the goal of a university, or it should not be. It would be too short-sighted and would not protect a country's potential in the long run. Universities should not be vocational schools!
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Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 01:49
Hebrew to English
| It's purchased with cash here.... | May 20, 2013 |
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
You make it sound like access to university is granted in a lottery or is purchased with cash.
Of course you need the grades the specific institution is asking for, but it doesn't matter if you could rival Einstein, if you haven't got the cash and/or are unwilling to get into massive debt then you ain't getting in!
You can argue about the merits of whether universities should reflect the needs of society (to an extent that happens here - it's why MPs constantly lament the proliferation of "mickey mouse" degrees), but here in England, universities are businesses now.
You don't have students. You have customers (each paying their £9000 a year for the privilege of being there).
I'm not really sure what's worse. State-run universities training workers or "corporate" universities which dissuade the poorest in society from even applying (not to mention their obsession with the bottom line [i.e. money] over knowledge and education).
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 02:49
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
You make it sound like access to university is granted in a lottery or is purchased with cash. ... In most countries, access to university is granted by merit and capacity, as proven by marks and achievements in previous educational stages, since the state has to allocate resources in a sensible way...
Yes, you're right, but I'm also right.
In South Africa, entry to university depends on four factors, namely merit, money, minority group, and your chosen career path. If you did exceptionally well at school, then you are guaranteed a place near the front of the queue, but you still need money and you can still be stifled if the quota for your race and sex is already filled at the university where you apply... and of course there must be room in the career path. If you want to become a rocket scientist and you did well enough at school and you have enough money to pay for it, but there are too many students who want to become rocket scientists, then you still might not get in.
Where the lottery really comes in is this: Most students are not exceptional. Many students get good grades at school but they don't get all aces. They are good enough for university, but the merit group that they're in is so big that there is an even chance of them being accepted. If a university has room for 10 000 students, and 50 000 learners got good enough grades at school to qualify for university, then only 1 in 5 of them will be accepted. That reminds me of... a lottery.
You say that the state has to allocate resources in a sensible way. What would be a sensible way except for that which relates to the needs of the country?
In most countries, and depending on the resources available, good students have public grants or benefits to help them in their higher studies.
In South Africa, most grants are private, not public. And there aren't many of them, and they typically don't cover full university fees. But there are public grants as well. Public grants are granted to students what meet the specific requirements set by the state, i.e. appropriate race and sex and appropriate career path.
You seem to imply ... that universities' goal should be to train workers, not to promote knowledge and science in its purest form. Training manpower is clearly not the goal of a university, or it should not be. ... Universities should not be vocational schools!
Perhaps that which is called a "university" in Spain is not that which is called a "university" in South Africa. In South Africa (and I suspect in most countries, in fact), a university is indeed a highly specialised vocational school. The purpose of universities is to train manpower. I'm not saying that a university can't also promote knowledge and science in its purest form, but that is a byproduct of the process.
Your description of a university makes me think of research institutes.
| | | | | Do you have a URL for that? | May 21, 2013 |
Sarai Pahla wrote: Samuel Murray wrote:
Do you have a URL for that? I could not confirm it.
I'll ask and get back to you if there is some firm confirmation.
Still no URL I'm afraid - hence consider this information given with a pinch of salt.
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