Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Feedback system for rating freelancers Thread poster: Haluk Levent Aka (X)
| common sense... | Apr 3, 2004 |
Haluk Aka wrote:
To Giovanni: Simply do not jump to conclusions. How do you know how I outsourced the job? Do you know me? Have you ever worked with me? Have I mention any detail about how I outsourced this job? Why do you make assumptions and present them as if they are facts?
All I know is that you assigned an important translation with a tight deadline to somebody whose profile looked professional and was a platinum member. You never worked with her before. "She seemed to qualify". Don't you think that it would be better to "test" translators with a short, paid text before assigning jobs like the one you mention? I think this is common practice amongst agencies. Nobody is saying that you are dumb, only that maybe you didn't take enough precautions. Before I buy a car, I want to test-drive it....![](https://cfcdn.proz.com/images/bb/smiles/icon_smile.gif)
Giovanni
[Edited at 2004-04-03 11:03] | | | Irene N United States Local time: 12:48 English to Russian + ... Few simple and well-known ways to ensure your reliability, and some thoughts | Apr 3, 2004 |
1. Always request Read Receipt when sending e-mails with jobs attached, or even better, every email.
2. Always have somebody who will make a phone call to your client for you in case something so urgent or bad happens to you that you can't even do it yourself, God Forbid! - husband, wife, parent, friend. They should have phone numbers or e-mail addresses of your clients - for me it is easy since I work for 4 agencies only and they keep me busy. Agencies have secretaries and administ... See more 1. Always request Read Receipt when sending e-mails with jobs attached, or even better, every email.
2. Always have somebody who will make a phone call to your client for you in case something so urgent or bad happens to you that you can't even do it yourself, God Forbid! - husband, wife, parent, friend. They should have phone numbers or e-mail addresses of your clients - for me it is easy since I work for 4 agencies only and they keep me busy. Agencies have secretaries and administrative assistants and hotlines, and so shoudl we - we get the money for our work so we must be fully organized for emergencies.
3. If there is a problem with your PC and you have even a slightest doubt about e-mails achieving the destination - dump your work on CD/memory stick and run to the nearest Internet place, many of them work round the clock. Keep the receipt as a proof of shipment date and time.
4. When you feel like you are getting sick and not sure how it turns out in a day or two - notify the client as soon as possible, don't rely on "I should get better tomorrow". If you are endangering the client potentially, give him time to catch his breath and rearrange his sources, let it be his decision to say that a few more days is OK and your quality and old friendship is much more important, or he might have a loop around his neck.
Always worked for me. Noone should abuse Item 4 though:-).
As far as rating is concerned - I really do not have a readily available recipy because I can see some clearly valid points on both sides.
As an agency I would start with involving the newcomers by offering them a series of smaller jobs easy to recover in all senses - quality, due dates etc. I would also ask around, I would certainly prefer to get a new person by hearing a good word from the "old" one. I do not want to offend members of all translation assosiations since I can't collaborate on the requirements and "filtration system" of all of them, but the ATA letters in the resume had proved to be a disaster on more than one occasion. I don't have any blind trust into those magic acronyms, any of them. I apologize.
Right now I'm a freelancer and do not operate as an agency - too much interesting work around, want to do it myself. I think I would agree with the possibility of certain evaluation points available for other potential clients, but the rules must be very strict with no cracks for "personal poison" invasion. After all, once in a while an agency might experience freelancer's personal vengence too and then struggle to build its reputation back. Sorry for the repetition, but I have never seen a wrong translator in my entire life. We are not so easy to deal with, like movie stars:) - creative and talented people are always fancyful and touchy:).
I need to think more about possible specifics.
Best regards,
Irina
[Edited at 2004-04-03 12:46] ▲ Collapse | | | Haluk Levent Aka (X) Local time: 21:48 Japanese to Turkish + ... TOPIC STARTER It is a relief to hear from a professional | Apr 3, 2004 |
IreneN wrote:
1. Always request Read Receipt when sending e-mails with jobs attached, or even better, every email.
2. Always have somebody who will make a phone call to your client for you in case something so urgent or bad happens to you that you can't even do it yourself, God Forbid! - husband, wife, parent, friend. They should have phone numbers or e-mail addresses of your clients - for me it is easy since I work for 4 agencies only and they keep me busy. Agencies have secretaries and administrative assistants and hotlines, and so shoudl we - we get the money for our work so we must be fully organized for emergencies.
3. If there is a problem with your PC and you have even a slightest doubt about e-mails achieving the destination - dump your work on CD/memory stick and run to the nearest Internet place, many of them work round the clock. Keep the receipt as a proof of shipment date and time.
4. When you feel like you are getting sick and not sure how it turns out in a day or two - notify the client as soon as possible, don't rely on "I should get better tomorrow". If you are endangering the client potentially, give him time to catch his breath and rearrange his sources, let it be his decision to say that a few more days is OK and your quality and old friendship is much more important, or he might have a loop around his neck.
Always worked for me. Noone should abuse Item 4 though:-).
As far as rating is concerned - I really do not have a readily available recipy because I can see some clearly valid points on both sides.
As an agency I would start with involving the newcomers by offering them a series of smaller jobs easy to recover in all senses - quality, due dates etc. I would also ask around, I would certainly prefer to get a new person by hearing a good word from the "old" one. I do not want to offend members of all translation assosiation since I can't collaborate on the requirements and "filtration system" of all of them, but the ATA letters in the resume had proved to be a disaster on more then one occasion. I don't have any blind trust into those magic acronyms, any of them. I apologize.
Right now I'm a freelancer and do not operate as an agency - too much interesting work around, want to do it myself. I think I would agree with the possibility of certain evaluation points available for other potential clients, but the rules must be very strict with no cracks for "personal poison" invasion. After all, once in a while an agency might experience freelancer's personal vengence too and then struggle to build its reputation back. Sorry for the repetition, but I have never seen a wrong translator in my entire life. We are not so easy to deal with, like movie stars:) - creative and talented people are always fancyful and touchy:).
I need to think more about possible specifics.
Best regards,
Irina
Thank you for your valuable comments and contribution Irina. It is good to know there are (still many) professionals who take their job seriously.
I think in my case what freaked me out most was being unable to communicate with the translator. She has gone incommunicado. I dialed her many times left message to her answering machine and her husband, who prooved being nomore helpful than the answering machine. So keeping in touch with the agency as you proposed above is the most important part. | | | Jaroslaw, you are right to think 'white list' | Apr 3, 2004 |
Jaroslaw wrote:
I will speak on this forum for the third and last time, since my last two posts were largely ignored.
Don't worry, we hear you. I tend to agree with your philosophy. Sorry for not crediting you when I said "think positive"! | |
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Marc P (X) Local time: 19:48 German to English + ... Feedback system for rating freelancers | Apr 3, 2004 |
Jaroslaw Michalak wrote:
Does not KudoZ work?
If you mean "does the points system work as an indication of professionalism", the answer is "No".
How anyone can seriously believe that a person's knowledge can be reliably rated by another person whose sole qualification is that they lack precisely that knowledge, is completelybeyond me. The KudoZ system does reveal a lot about expertise, but to assess that expertise, you have to possess it yourself and examine questions and answers over a longer period. The points system is just a game.
I wouldn't oppose a "white list" in principle, but who is going to assess the assessors? Satisfied customers aren't necessarily in a position to judge whether they should be satisfied, and there is plenty of scope for abuse; translators can easily arrange for another party to rate them positively.
Marc | | | lien Netherlands Local time: 19:48 English to French + ... Very interesting discussion | Apr 3, 2004 |
Henry wrote:
Nothing is impending. But I would challenge those who consistently provide quality work, on time, to consider ways in which that fact might be made more evident to outsourcers upon first encounter.
We have considered some ways and will think of more. Write to me if anything occurs to you... and think positive!
which allow us to have a look in the "other side" of the story.
But after all said and considered, if I was an agency I would have first have a look at the Portfolio in the profile of the translator.
For a first contact, I would send a free test of around 200 words with a dead line in the field for which the translator is required.
This way, I would see the translator himself at work, just the real thing and aside of any claims of membership whatsoever. I would already have a good idea of the person, exchanging emails, his/her ways of dealing.
If they "don't do tests anymore", it will only prove they have already enough client and enough work, so this would be a good opportunity to look for some new faces and build myself a reliable team for the agency.
I would keep one or two days as buffer for anything than could go wrong before the delivering to the client. By the way, if you intended to send the translation the same day receiving it, it means that you had no intention to proofread or check before deliver. Do you think you get the best part of the money just being a mailbox ?
This "white list" could not be reliable either. How many will have theirs friends rating for them and mutually ? Some even for money. You know the world out there. Make me think of this "recommandations" on internet business, about the fiability of the seller/buyer. It does not mean a thing.
Do not judge me on my written English as I only translate into French.![](https://cfcdn.proz.com/images/bb/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif)
[Edited at 2004-04-03 18:11]
[Edited at 2004-04-03 18:24] | | | Irene N United States Local time: 12:48 English to Russian + ... Classic example of a misunderstanding resulting from bad choice of words - self-criticism:) | Apr 3, 2004 |
I'm talking about a bad choice made by me, dearest:). Oh, well, it is Saturday and I'm having 2 days off, and my slogan for these 2 days is No proofreading/editing of any kind until Monday (my posting is my witness). I really did not mean it literally when I said "certain evaluation points", like Kudoz points, for example. I like the idea of white list in principle, and I'm not so sure we should be talking any kind of specific topic/knowledge assessments here. Some battles over a single term on ... See more I'm talking about a bad choice made by me, dearest:). Oh, well, it is Saturday and I'm having 2 days off, and my slogan for these 2 days is No proofreading/editing of any kind until Monday (my posting is my witness). I really did not mean it literally when I said "certain evaluation points", like Kudoz points, for example. I like the idea of white list in principle, and I'm not so sure we should be talking any kind of specific topic/knowledge assessments here. Some battles over a single term on these pages help to get a possible picture... Ouch:-( I'm looking more into measures of reliability, traceable references, a place to put a good word about a colleague (or to receive one), BTW, the latter would also be a chance to point out a specific subject relevant to the project you did together, for example, or for a client (preferrably traceable) to put Thank you words there... I did not figure it all out yet, but this is the direction my mind is working in. Again, don't beat me up right there, nothing is carved in stone yet.
Have a nice weekend, everyone! ▲ Collapse | | | Heinrich Pesch Finland Local time: 20:48 Member (2003) Finnish to German + ... Some agencies ask for recommendations from colleagues | Apr 4, 2004 |
Instead of posting in Proz.com or other places some agencies contact their translators and ask for help. Last week one agency called me and asked, if I can take also jobs into Swedish. I said: Sorry, no, but I can recommend you a couple of Swedish colleagues with whom I have worked together. I sent her the contact information of two persons, whom I trust, who deliver on time and are in the affordable price range.
I believe this is how agencies should proceed, when they want to take jobs in... See more Instead of posting in Proz.com or other places some agencies contact their translators and ask for help. Last week one agency called me and asked, if I can take also jobs into Swedish. I said: Sorry, no, but I can recommend you a couple of Swedish colleagues with whom I have worked together. I sent her the contact information of two persons, whom I trust, who deliver on time and are in the affordable price range.
I believe this is how agencies should proceed, when they want to take jobs in unfamiliar languages. ▲ Collapse | |
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Haluk Levent Aka (X) Local time: 21:48 Japanese to Turkish + ... TOPIC STARTER Aga ne diyon sen ya? | Apr 4, 2004 |
Tayfun Torunoglu wrote:
Haluk Aka wrote:
To Tayfun: That is not professional thinking that way.
At first glance you fixed unprofessional thinking.
I honestly do not understand what you are trying to say.
[Edited at 2004-04-04 18:21] | | | Marc P (X) Local time: 19:48 German to English + ...
Tayfun Torunoglu wrote:
Translators or whatever call them can not be rated, It is Libel
Surely it is libel only if the facts are untrue?
And why is it that agencies can be libelled (er, sorry, rated) on ProZ, but not translators?
Have you ever heard of Any Lawyers, Doctors being RATED?
I have never heard of lawyers or doctors not being members of professional associations.
Marc | | | Haluk Levent Aka (X) Local time: 21:48 Japanese to Turkish + ... TOPIC STARTER This figures... | Apr 5, 2004 |
Tayfun Torunoglu wrote:
...
" Libel Law
Libel = injury to reputation through publication of negative information. Technically, any injury to reputation by something published or broadcast is libel, whether it is true or false.
So it is true than libel by translators against outsourcers is allowed in proz. | | | Marc P (X) Local time: 19:48 German to English + ...
Tayfun Torunoglu wrote:
Technically, any injury to reputation by something published or broadcast is libel, whether it is true or false.
So, in your opinion:
...it would seem that you have come across a person named Daniel Toledano. He has been banned from this site.
Daniel uses different names, but he can be spotted by his characteristic rude manner, confrontational style and ethnic and religious remarks. His emails generally come from Canada or France, though he may claim to be elsewhere.
- is that libel, or not?
Rating of agencies are not libel per se, Agency is not a person.
What if the agency is just one person (sole trader)? Are critical comments permitted then, or not?
We have no reputable or effective organization in Turkey for this.
That is unfortunate. But you can still join a professional association in another country. I am a member of two associations, but neither is in my country.
Do you have any Rating beside your names in that Professional assosiations from Clients?
Of course not. Grievances should be settled between the parties concerned if possible, then privately within the association, and then, if all else fails, by the courts. Do you think professional associations are going to tell the public "this person is a member of our association, but acts unprofessionally?" A member who does not abide by the profession's code of conduct should be excluded from it.
Marc | |
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I'd appreciate to be rated | Apr 5, 2004 |
When you're a beginner, from a translation school or not, you need to work for training.
If you say that you're a beginner you're not chosen if there's somebody else to do the job. When I started I was adviced to lie, and to say that I had years of experience. I don't like that, so I didn't. I was lucky to find, by private contact, experienced translators, particularly one (who became a good friend), who accepted to correct my translations (sort of mentor). It was hard to get jobs.
... See more When you're a beginner, from a translation school or not, you need to work for training.
If you say that you're a beginner you're not chosen if there's somebody else to do the job. When I started I was adviced to lie, and to say that I had years of experience. I don't like that, so I didn't. I was lucky to find, by private contact, experienced translators, particularly one (who became a good friend), who accepted to correct my translations (sort of mentor). It was hard to get jobs.
But jobs started to come by other means, through people met in KudoZ or in the forums. They hadn't really tested me, but they "knew" me.
Well, if two years ago I had been able to ask my clients or outsourcers to rate me in my profile saying just if they were satisfied with my job and would like to work again with me it would have been easier to find more jobs.
So I think that such a rating could be helpful for beginners.
But now, that I have work, I still think that it could be good for me.
If when I bid for a job it's written: this translator accepts to be rated in her profile at the end of projects, for instance, I think that it would show the outsourcer that I'm confident enough in the quality of what I do.
Now, I hear you, Marc, when you wonder how askers can chose the best answer in KudoZ and how the client can evaluate the quality of the translation, I understand what you mean, but tell me how many askers in KudoZ don't know what they're asking for? It's just a term that they're looking for (I'm not talking about language students or adventurers), I believe that there are not so many.
When I've seen complaints here from outsourcers, it's because the format or deadline weren't respected, never because of the quality of the translation. I think that all the translators (and agencies or intermediaries) know (should know) that for the quality it's another step.
I also know that problems happen. Either electricity, Internet connection, illness, accident...and I'm not sure that absolutely all my clients were 100% satisfied with my job, but I belive that there were more satisfied than unsatisfied clients...and as Irina said in point 4, as soon as I see that there's going to be a problem (maybe), I say it. So, if the client is of good faith, we're among adult and responsible people and want the translation done by the more qualified person, even if that means that I lose the job.
I have already lost money because I thought that my translation needed to be proofread before being sent, and I paid another translator for it (more than once). Because I wanted to do a good job and that I take care of my reputation. The most important point in a translating deal is The Translation. I place after that all the interests.
I'm careful with the people for whom I work too.
If I could say now to all my previous clients "please rate me in my profile, saying if you were satisfied and if you'd recommend me to other outsourcers" I could be accused of having friends who rate me. It would be true, because we are friends. But I've also worked for them (and they have worked for me). It's true that those who know that we've worked one for each other are them and me, so this kind of system could be criticized (as well as all the other systems are criticized: KudoZ, Blue Board, etc.), but it would be useful too, with a pinch of salt.
My two pesos (sorry, it's not about self promotion, but I couldn't make it without my own experience).
P.S. I forgot another point: I'm sure that none of the people for whom I've worked would give me a bad rating because they want to keep me for them or to avoid my prices to get higher.
[Edited at 2004-04-05 15:25] ▲ Collapse | | | Marc P (X) Local time: 19:48 German to English + ... Feedback system for rating freelancers | Apr 5, 2004 |
Hi Claudia,
I agree, a rating system for freelancers is much more realistic if it only refers to whether deadlines were respected, and doesn't extend to the quality of translations themselves, which may be a subjective issue. The comparison with KudoZ wasn't mine, but was in direct response to Jaroslaw's, as the basis for his argument was that the KudoZ points system works, and I maintain that it doesn't. Many experienced translators on ProZ are in favour of abolishing it, a majorit... See more Hi Claudia,
I agree, a rating system for freelancers is much more realistic if it only refers to whether deadlines were respected, and doesn't extend to the quality of translations themselves, which may be a subjective issue. The comparison with KudoZ wasn't mine, but was in direct response to Jaroslaw's, as the basis for his argument was that the KudoZ points system works, and I maintain that it doesn't. Many experienced translators on ProZ are in favour of abolishing it, a majority in fact according to a recent poll in the Italian forum.
Personally, I can see the argument that some people are making that missed deadlines may be outside the translators' control. But from my experience this is very rare. It's like traffic accidents: if someone tells me they've only ever had one driving accident, and that wasn't their fault, I'll probably give them the benefit of the doubt. But if they have an accident every three weeks, and say it's never their fault, I'm more sceptical.
What concerns me more is how such a rating system might be perceived. Even if it only refers to deadline reliability, people with good ratings are bound to start making other claims about it. Just as at the moment, KudoZ points and Platinum membership are touted as evidence of professionalism. There's nothing wrong with the KudoZ game, provided people accept that it's a game, and there's nothing wrong with paying 120 Euros in order to enjoy the full benefits of the site. It's the wild claims about what these things are supposed to indicate that I'm sceptical about.
Coming back to missed deadlines: yes, deadlines can be missed through no fault of the translator's. But if you live in a region where the power lines are routed overground and electrical storms are common, you install surge arrestors and a UPS. If you're planning on disappearing (say on holiday) as soon as you've delivered that last order, you phone first to make sure it arrived. You should always either have a second Internet account, or know how to set one up in a hurry, for the event that your main ISP fails for whatever reason. In order to miss several deadlines through illness, you need not only to be particularly unhealthy, but also to have a habit of cutting deadlines tight. If you don't have a spare PC (I have had a second PC since 1994, and currently have three), you should at least know how to organize one in a hurry. If you don't back up data, it's your fault if it's lost. Bad luck can happen, but it tends to happen less to people who take precautions. But you know all that.![](https://cfcdn.proz.com/images/bb/smiles/icon_smile.gif)
Marc ▲ Collapse | | | Agree on everything | Apr 5, 2004 |
I fully agree, Marc, and I like the comparisons you give.
MarcPrior wrote:
I agree, a rating system for freelancers is much more realistic if it only refers to whether deadlines were respected, and doesn't extend to the quality of translations themselves, which may be a subjective issue.
....What concerns me more is how such a rating system might be perceived. Even if it only refers to deadline reliability, people with good ratings are bound to start making other claims about it. Just as at the moment, KudoZ points and Platinum membership are touted as evidence of professionalism.
These are the reasons why the system I imagine would be very simple:
Would you like this translator to work for you again? (the answer could be yes/no or very much/maybe/never), and would you recommend this translator to other outsourcers (yes/no)
Why? Because in a serious evaluation many factors play a role, not all of them are related to the quality of the job, and some are very subjective.
In another thread (opened by Edward Potter, about what makes him chose a translator), I couldn't understand why a phone number was so important, but now I see that some translators don't answer to e-mails, so I understand that "phone number" can be one of these many, many factors that would decide you to work with somebody again (personnally I'd give more importance to online presence than ability to be contacted by phone). Anyway, outsourcers can't be asked to fill a whole form with 20 questions about the translator and one particular job (I mean that many won't answer to that because it's too long), so keeping it simple and with contact addresses to check for more details would be enough. It seems that it couldn't be perceived in another way.
As many people are against such a rating, I can't imagine something compulsory. | | | Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » Feedback system for rating freelancers Pastey |
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