| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | Translation PM job with "non compete" agreement (USA). Please advise Thread poster: d3trad
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Robert Forstag 
United States
Local time: 16:24
Spanish to English
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| Seems more of a theoretical dispute | Jan 29, 2016 |
Tom in London wrote:
Dan Lucas wrote:
Tom in London wrote:
Doesn't helping others when you can fall within your Weltanschauung? Has it got this bad? Surely even an ex-Japan stock market investment analyst has some humanity left?
Well, maybe all my humanity has indeed been burned away in the purifying fire of the markets.
Or maybe I'm just not in the habit of using moral suasion on a person I don't know, operating in situations I may not understand, with the intent of coercing that person into helping other persons also completely unknown to me and whom I unilaterally decide are deserving of help, despite all parties living half a world away from me.
Dan
I confess that this type of reaction leaves me with my mouth hanging open.
So it *has* got this bad. [Edited at 2016-01-29 12:37 GMT]
This discussion strikes me as rather pointless in anything other than a theoretical sense, for it seems unlikely that the OP would personally know (or even be aware of the identity of) any of the "other applicants" for this position.
I would also have to say that I generally agree with Dan's position here, given that the agency in question is being entirely up front with its employment conditions. Assuming that the other applicants for this position are not dyslexic, mentally deficient, or pathologically compulsive, they can be assumed capable of discerning the implications of the terms being proposed.
[Edited at 2016-01-29 16:02 GMT]
| | | | Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 16:24
Spanish to English
+ ...
| How about proposing a counter-offer? | Jan 29, 2016 |
Instead of either allowing the agency to hold your financial future hostage or simply walking away, how about proposing a counter-offer?
As Livinia points out, the agency's main (legitimate) interest is that you not steal their clients. To that end, you can indicate a willingness to sign an agreement promising that, at such time as you leave the agency in question, you will not do paid work of any kind for any of the clients you've worked with through said agency for a period of one... See more Instead of either allowing the agency to hold your financial future hostage or simply walking away, how about proposing a counter-offer?
As Livinia points out, the agency's main (legitimate) interest is that you not steal their clients. To that end, you can indicate a willingness to sign an agreement promising that, at such time as you leave the agency in question, you will not do paid work of any kind for any of the clients you've worked with through said agency for a period of one year following termination of employment (or for a longer period, if you are comfortable with a longer period).
I am in general agreement with the sentiment of the respondents here that the terms proposed by the agency are outrageous (and would be so even for a highly paid executive position with a large agency, let alone for a modestly paid PM position with a small company).
Even if such a counter-offer is refused, you could at least have the closure of knowing that you did what you could to reach agreement with the company in question. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 21:24
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Iris Schmerda wrote:
I wouldn't touch them with a ten-foot pole.
What happens if they should fire you after a month or so?
You wouldn't even be allowed to get back to your freelance activity and so would lose all your clients. Your career as a translator would be over, and then, three years later, you would be allowed to start everything from scratch for the second time.
Must be a crazy company.
Precisely. Well said, Iris! They shouldn't even be putting you in this position, which judging by some of the other posts, is turning into a Kafkaesque mental nightmare. Just walk away. There are other fish in the sea.
| | | | | No problem, really. | Jan 29, 2016 |
They don't want you to translate for 3 years they should pay you for 3 years. That's real counter-offer.
I am serious - when you are faced with such blunt proposal you should be equally 'honest'.
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Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 21:24
Member (2007)
English
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| Be careful with the wording though | Jan 29, 2016 |
Robert Forstag wrote:
As Livinia points out, the agency's main (legitimate) interest is that you not steal their clients. To that end, you can indicate a willingness to sign an agreement promising that, at such time as you leave the agency in question, you will not do paid work of any kind for any of the clients you've worked with through said agency for a period of one year following termination of employment (or for a longer period, if you are comfortable with a longer period).
I personally would sign something along those lines. However, keep in mind the fact that sometimes a freelance translator - and maybe a freelance PM or one who works for an intermediary agency - won't know exactly who the end client is. So you'll want to be sure to say you won't ***knowingly*** have any contact with them. You don't want to be sued for something that you were completely unaware of doing.
@ OP: You've said "if things do not work out and I leave the company" and "should I ever be dismissed or feel compelled to quit". As though perhaps signing up to this outrageous condition won't matter because it will probably never happen (as in those clauses that talk of getting sued for millions if you make a mistake in a translation). But of course this clause WILL be invoked one day. Unless you're even older than I am it's very unlikely that you'll be staying in this job until you retire.
| | | | Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 16:24
Spanish to English
+ ...
I agree with both your modification of my suggestion and with your alerting the OP that the issue of leaving is one of "when" and not "if."
Upon further reflection, it is even a good possibility that the agency in question will fold sooner rather than later, and therefore any agreement should properly include a provision annulling any post-employment restrictions should the agency cease operations.
[Edited at 2016-01-29 15:59 GMT]
| | | | | Since no one has said it yet | Jan 29, 2016 |
Show the contract to a lawyer who specializes in employment contracts and see what s/he has to say about it. Not only is it important to get a professional's opinion on tricky issues like this but also there could be other landmines hidden in the contract that your untrained eyes can't detect. Maybe the outrageous "non compete" clause is only there to distract you from the other unfair clauses within.
| | | | Markus Nystrom
United States
Local time: 15:24
Swedish to English
+ ...
| Silicon Valley scenario | Jan 30, 2016 |
If said lawyer determines that the contract is invalid due to defects of law, you can take the job and calmly begin poaching the company's clients. They deserve to be put out of business for the noncompete clause.
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Kay Denney
France
Local time: 22:24
French to English
| Well, I think you may be right... | Jan 30, 2016 |
Tom in London wrote:
Dan Lucas wrote:
Tom in London wrote:
Doesn't helping others when you can fall within your Weltanschauung? Has it got this bad? Surely even an ex-Japan stock market investment analyst has some humanity left?
Well, maybe all my humanity has indeed been burned away in the purifying fire of the markets.
Or maybe I'm just not in the habit of using moral suasion on a person I don't know, operating in situations I may not understand, with the intent of coercing that person into helping other persons also completely unknown to me and whom I unilaterally decide are deserving of help, despite all parties living half a world away from me.
Dan
I confess that this type of reaction leaves me with my mouth hanging open.
So it *has* got this bad. [Edited at 2016-01-29 12:37 GMT]
I'm rather flabbergasted at your suggestion.
Bear in mind firstly that another applicant might want the job just to tide them over for a while with no intention of making translation their life's work - in which case that clause might not worry them in the least.
Secondly, all applicants are presumably adults, and responsible for themselves.
Thirdly, I wouldn't even know how to go about warning potential applicants. Do you post yourself outside the company's office and approach anyone trying to enter the premises? or publish an ad in the same place that the company was advertising? Pretty sure either could get you into trouble (defamation, that kind of thing).
| | | | Kay Denney
France
Local time: 22:24
French to English
Paweł Hamerski wrote:
They don't want you to translate for 3 years they should pay you for 3 years. That's real counter-offer.
I am serious - when you are faced with such blunt proposal you should be equally 'honest'.
And it's actually the law in France: the person fired has to receive a percentage of their salary for the entire time the clause applies. It's a negotiating given that the larger the area covered the more you're paid (for example, figures off the top of my head, you'd get 1% for the Paris region, 3% for France, 10% for the whole world).
I believe the employer has to pay the amount into a fund to be paid monthly, so that if they go bankrupt the former employee still gets their monthly stipend.
I would say that a reasonable clause would last for no longer than a year, apply to no more than the state you are in and only apply to the actual services you provide the company. If you're working as PM, you should be allowed to then work as a translator.
| | | | Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 21:24
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
Texte Style wrote:
Secondly, all applicants are presumably adults, and responsible for themselves.
That has to be the basic stance. Assuming otherwise, especially in the case of people we have never met, would be not only presumptious but also plain rude.
"You, an adult, capable of making your own decisions? Oh no no, we can't have that! I'll decide what's good for you!"
Making plans for Nigel, indeed.
| | | | | These amounts sound ridiculously low | Feb 1, 2016 |
Texte Style wrote:
And it's actually the law in France: the person fired has to receive a percentage of their salary for the entire time the clause applies. It's a negotiating given that the larger the area covered the more you're paid (for example, figures off the top of my head, you'd get 1% for the Paris region, 3% for France, 10% for the whole world).
If your salary is e.g. 3000 EUR/month, then 1% of that salary would be 30 EUR and 10% - 300 EUR. What would even be the point of paying/receiving such a small sum of money?
This resource suggests 30% of the salary as a suitable starting point, which appears to be more in line with what I would expect to be the compensation for someone who is, for all intents and purposes, prevented from earning their livelihood in the field they are most competent in.
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d3trad wrote:
Namely, it says that if things do not work out and I leave the company, I'm not allowed to work in the translation industry for _three years_, and not just that, but I can't do this work _anywhere in the world_.
Has anyone here seen or heard of this kind of agreement before? I want to know if it's truly enforceable (initial Googling makes me think it is), or just an intimidation tactic.
That's excessive, and it wouldn't fly in Europe. In the US, I don't know.
There are good reasons to protect whatever knowledge of them you're going to acquire as an insider, but effectively giving them exclusive access to your services as project manager with no guarantee of employment is not okay to ask
And it may well be an intimidation tactic. Agencies tend to like their contractors softened.
| | | | Kay Denney
France
Local time: 22:24
French to English
Viesturs Lacis wrote:
Texte Style wrote:
And it's actually the law in France: the person fired has to receive a percentage of their salary for the entire time the clause applies. It's a negotiating given that the larger the area covered the more you're paid (for example, figures off the top of my head, you'd get 1% for the Paris region, 3% for France, 10% for the whole world).
If your salary is e.g. 3000 EUR/month, then 1% of that salary would be 30 EUR and 10% - 300 EUR. What would even be the point of paying/receiving such a small sum of money?
This resource suggests 30% of the salary as a suitable starting point, which appears to be more in line with what I would expect to be the compensation for someone who is, for all intents and purposes, prevented from earning their livelihood in the field they are most competent in.
I did say the figures were off the top of my head! I have no idea how much you'd be entitled to, only having researched the fact that you're entitled to something.
| | | | Anne Pinaglia
Netherlands
Local time: 22:24
Italian to English
+ ...
My sense tells me that this kind of clause is not legal as it would create a "you work for us or you work for no one" relationship. So, even if you signed it, it wouldn't be enforceable because the terms are not compliant with the law.
I've had terms I didn't like before. I crossed them out, initialed the marks and sent them back. Never had a complaint (probably because the PMs didn't even examine them thoroughly).
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