| Pages in topic: [1 2 3] > | Agency pays 1/6 of actual time spent Thread poster: Frank van Overveld
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Dear colleagues,
I would like to ask you for some advice.
An agency I've worked with for years offered me a revision job.
I work through their platform, they create the PO's. However, the PO's are created after jobs are delivered. There was no time limit given for this job. There was no description of the compensation amount.
I always worked with them based on mutual trust, but the past year or so things have changed and I often get the impress... See more Dear colleagues,
I would like to ask you for some advice.
An agency I've worked with for years offered me a revision job.
I work through their platform, they create the PO's. However, the PO's are created after jobs are delivered. There was no time limit given for this job. There was no description of the compensation amount.
I always worked with them based on mutual trust, but the past year or so things have changed and I often get the impression they are paying me a lot less than they should.
I wrote them a lengthy e-mail in October stating my complaints about these issues in order to improve the working conditions and maintain a good collaborative relationship, such as: state clearly your requirements, indicate the pricing, indicate what we should focus on for revisions, etc. I didn't get a proper reply.
I received much less work than usual since then, until a few days ago.
Yesterday I did a revision job for them. It was a translation with a detailed styleguide.
The quality of the translation was very bad. The style was bad, the grammar was bad, the terminology was bad. About everything was bad.
I had to keep a log of original translations and revisions with a scorecard.
I carried out the job according to the description and requirements. I told them it took me around 3 hours, much longer than it would have taken me to translate directly because of the added logging tasks, comparisons, etc. And because of the poor quality.
They said they would pay me a little extra.
Today they added the purchase order: 0,5 hours of work. I asked them if that is the final amount I will get paid. I have not received a reply yet.
Obviously I do not agree with this.
They should pay me for actual work performed, not based on their (unknown) calculations, but based on actual time spent. I did the work they asked me to do, they know my rate, they should pay me what I've done.
Paying 16,66% of the actual time spent is insulting.
I would like your advice on how to proceed. Ideally, they pay me, and they change their ways.
I don't think the personal route helps, so I am thinking more in terms of legal arguments, such as: you did not specify how much time I was supposed to spend on this task, so I did everything that was required in the description, so you owe me for the time I spent doing those tasks.
Any suggestions are welcome.
Thanks in advance! ▲ Collapse
| | | | Jean Lachaud 
United States
Local time: 08:40
English to French
+ ...
| That customer is best... | Dec 21, 2023 |
... left to your competitors.
| | | | | Don’t let them get away with it | Dec 21, 2023 |
Insist on payment for three hours and then move on
| | | | Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:40
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
| Is the agency based in Europe? | Dec 22, 2023 |
If so, charge them for the three hours, notify them that you'll follow up with a legal claim if they don't, and never work with them again.
Dan
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| Once I decided I'd never again do revision jobs on freelance | Dec 22, 2023 |
And still I get such offerings from time to time. In my case, it's always a fixed rate and never based on time spent, so I've explained to the managers that the amount of pay I'd get for revision jobs would never cover the suffering. They don't believe me saying things like, "Oh, but this guy is good, we never get any complaints about his translations, etc." There may have been a time when I'd buy into this, but that time is long gone. Maybe in some markets a reviewer does sometimes receive actu... See more And still I get such offerings from time to time. In my case, it's always a fixed rate and never based on time spent, so I've explained to the managers that the amount of pay I'd get for revision jobs would never cover the suffering. They don't believe me saying things like, "Oh, but this guy is good, we never get any complaints about his translations, etc." There may have been a time when I'd buy into this, but that time is long gone. Maybe in some markets a reviewer does sometimes receive actually good translations just to polish them a bit, but over here, if a translation gets passed to a reviewer, it's most likely a piece of crap. Exceptions happen, I know. I have to do revision jobs all the time because I work in-house, and I know that a translator who actually thinks rather than follows a fully mechanical algorithm when working is a real treasure, which is extremely hard to find ▲ Collapse
| | | | | | | Not the same | Dec 22, 2023 |
Thank you for your question Maria.
This is not referring to the same agency.
But the problem is similar: i get offered jobs, but there is no purchase order attached, and often the compensation isn't mentioned.
I agree a purchase order is supposed to be issued before delivery when they are asking me to carry out work for them. I told them this is what they should be doing 2 months ago. But it seems to me they have to wait for PO's from other agencies they work for before they can issue them. They are proper bottom feeders I think.
I've tolerated these conditions up til now, but I'm getting really sick of carrying out proper work and then getting peanuts for it, while they never disclosed how much they would pay me upfront.
Usually this isn't an issue because I can calculate myself what I will get for a translation, but revisions are different.
In this case, the quality was bad, there was a long list of required tasks, they wanted detailed feedback so the translator knows what they did wrong, all of which I did to professional standards.
They only issued their PO with the compensation after delivery.
They calculate the compensation based in a rate per number of words quota: around 1600 reviewed words per hour.
But that is very unreasonable considering the quality of the translation and the tasks required.
I also never agreed to this quota. I was never asked about it, never agreed to it, it wasn't mentioned when the job was offered.
So I feel like my trust is being betrayed and I don't like that. Especially since this agency did give me a lot of opportunities in the past and we've worked for interesting clients together. So I would prefer to maintain the collaboration but under the right conditions.
[Modifié le 2023-12-22 09:26 GMT]
[Modifié le 2023-12-22 09:27 GMT]
[Modifié le 2023-12-22 09:27 GMT]
[Modifié le 2023-12-22 09:29 GMT]
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Denis Fesik wrote:
And still I get such offerings from time to time. In my case, it's always a fixed rate and never based on time spent, so I've explained to the managers that the amount of pay I'd get for revision jobs would never cover the suffering. They don't believe me saying things like, "Oh, but this guy is good, we never get any complaints about his translations, etc." There may have been a time when I'd buy into this, but that time is long gone. Maybe in some markets a reviewer does sometimes receive actually good translations just to polish them a bit, but over here, if a translation gets passed to a reviewer, it's most likely a piece of crap. Exceptions happen, I know. I have to do revision jobs all the time because I work in-house, and I know that a translator who actually thinks rather than follows a fully mechanical algorithm when working is a real treasure, which is extremely hard to find
Thank you Denis for your detailed feedback.
I also notified them 2 months ago that I would not be accepting anymore revision jobs if conditions don't improve.
I gave them another chance this time, but again they have betrayed my trust.
So I will probably start refusing those jobs from now on as well.
I agree that the translations are pretty poor quality most of the time.
This one was particularly abysmal though, clearly a complete amateur for a project that required a very specific style.
It's not fair to try to use my time for free to correct such things, and then even ask for detailed feedback so the translator can improve on their mistakes.
I'm giving them free training now and helping my competitor, without getting paid for it.
I am very indignant about it.
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Dan Lucas wrote:
If so, charge them for the three hours, notify them that you'll follow up with a legal claim if they don't, and never work with them again.
Dan
Thank you for your question Dan.
They are indeed based in Europe.
I would rather have the collaboration improve.
But at this stage i'm not sure if it's possible. The company just seems to be run too poorly to provide fair conditions to their freelancers.
| | | | Zea_Mays
Italy
Local time: 14:40
English to German
+ ...
| Wondering... | Dec 22, 2023 |
Maybe you know them so well that you don't negotiate rates in advance, but for me it's very strange to work (for years??) on jobs without knowing what I'll be paid for them.
The usual procedure would be: you get the files > you check quality > you tell the agency how much time it will take (or the per word rate this translates to) > the agency agrees or negotiates the rate with you > you accept the job.
So my question actually is: Why do you accept such jobs??
As for the situat... See more Maybe you know them so well that you don't negotiate rates in advance, but for me it's very strange to work (for years??) on jobs without knowing what I'll be paid for them.
The usual procedure would be: you get the files > you check quality > you tell the agency how much time it will take (or the per word rate this translates to) > the agency agrees or negotiates the rate with you > you accept the job.
So my question actually is: Why do you accept such jobs??
As for the situation: I agree with Dan, charge them for the time it took and then cross them off your list.
[Bearbeitet am 2023-12-22 10:02 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Mentioned already | Dec 22, 2023 |
Zea_Mays wrote:
Maybe you know them so well that you don't negotiate rates in advance, but for me it's very strange to work (for years??) on jobs without knowing what I'll be paid for them.
The usual procedure would be: you get the files > you check quality > you tell the agency how much time it will take (or the per word rate this translates to) > the agency agrees or negotiates the rate with you > you accept the job.
So my question actually is: Why do you accept such jobs??
As for the situation: I agree with Dan, charge them for the time it took and then cross them off your list.
[Bearbeitet am 2023-12-22 10:02 GMT]
Hi Zea
I understand your astonishment.
However, as I mentioned previously, we used to work on a basis of mutual trust, because I was paid fairly for work in the past. They offered me a lot of work with interesting clients, and I would prefer for the collaboration to improve rather than for it to disappear completely.
We agreed on rate per word and hourly rates, but at some point they decided to pay 1 hour of time for 1500 and now 1600 words of revision. I never agreed to this, it wasn't discussed during negotations.
This is why I told them they should indicate clearly in job descriptions what the budget is, or the amount of time allocated for the job. But they don't do this very often.
The past year or so, issues like this have accumulated and I have sent them a few e-mails with detailed feedback about it.
But I don't see any improvement yet.
But since I do feel they gave me a lot of opportunities to work with interesting clients and grow, I would rather exhaust all possible means to improve the conditions than to cut them loose.
However, that may be my only option if I want to keep my sanity, and not waste my time.
| | | | Zea_Mays
Italy
Local time: 14:40
English to German
+ ...
| Time to allocate | Dec 22, 2023 |
"1 hour of time for 1500 and now 1600 words of revision"
What does "revision" mean? Editing? Proofreading? QA? Based on your description I assume editing.
In my experience, 500-1000 words/hour is a reasonable average for editing, and 800-1500 words/hour for proofreading, depending on the quality. But maybe you actually worked on machine translated text, then it was MTPE.
"The past year or so, issues like this have accumulated and I have sent them a few e-mails with deta... See more "1 hour of time for 1500 and now 1600 words of revision"
What does "revision" mean? Editing? Proofreading? QA? Based on your description I assume editing.
In my experience, 500-1000 words/hour is a reasonable average for editing, and 800-1500 words/hour for proofreading, depending on the quality. But maybe you actually worked on machine translated text, then it was MTPE.
"The past year or so, issues like this have accumulated and I have sent them a few e-mails with detailed feedback about it."
Do you feel this will get better? Are there signs to support this improvement? Then you may insist on clear terms up front. Otherwise, I would say goodbye to them. ▲ Collapse
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Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 14:40
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
| Very loose attitude | Dec 22, 2023 |
I can see a lot of loose attitude and terms here…”maybe”, “they seem to”, etc.
You need to stipulate stronger terms, this is a business relationship, not a friendship. It sounds like you are improving AI, doing MTPE or cleaning very bad test translations, which is all very tiring. This tiring factor also needs to go into the price, along with the # of hours.
When you emailed them about this, what did they reply? Personally, I would politely withdraw.
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When I started freelancing some 40 years ago I had some awful editing experiences that taught me to never accept a project without having a good look at it first...
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Zea_Mays wrote:
"1 hour of time for 1500 and now 1600 words of revision"
What does "revision" mean? Editing? Proofreading? QA? Based on your description I assume editing.
In my experience, 500-1000 words/hour is a reasonable average for editing, and 800-1500 words/hour for proofreading, depending on the quality. But maybe you actually worked on machine translated text, then it was MTPE.
"The past year or so, issues like this have accumulated and I have sent them a few e-mails with detailed feedback about it."
Do you feel this will get better? Are there signs to support this improvement? Then you may insist on clear terms up front. Otherwise, I would say goodbye to them.
They called it proofreading but this is the job description (sensitive info censored with XXXX)
🧩Notes for linguists:
- Please use informal for NLNL, and formal for NLBE
- For XXXX, all product names should be kept in English. XXXX specific terminology should not be used as a reference for XXXX translations.
- Please use double quotation marks!
- Please make sure to double check all UI instances (read the instruction files)
- In case of queries: Please ask your query at the relevant segment in XXXX, then report in the comments in XXXX: 1. Segment number, 2. Question asked.
- - Regarding alt-text: we will always specify so in the instructions if it needs to be translated, and the final word count will include this text. In those cases where we don't include such a note, the alt text can remain as it is, especially if we have already marked the affected string as reviewed. This is the case for those images whose alt text is the name of the file.
[REV only] - Please do not approve segments in XXXX!
[REV only] - Scorecard: Please always add the language pair and for the Evaluator, you can just add XXXX.
Remember to add comments to the scorecards, not only the error and correction, so she understands what the error is about. Please ONLY log changes made to strings translated by us, the strings that are only for review in all projects shouldn't be added to the scorecard.
As you can see, this is not a simple proofreading, but a revision of a translation with very detailed instructions, including a style guide and UI interfaces and a Help Center that must be checked online to verify terminology.
They also specified adding detailed feedback to help the translator improve.
From what I understand, the agency I work for receives this work from another agency. So they are at the bottom.
It seems to me that they are more or less tied to whatever this other agency is paying them.
However, right now it is me that is paying the price with my time to carry out this work to professional standards according to the job description.
I have indeed reached the point where I am ready to take legal action if they do not pay for the work actually delivered.
They are now "discussing" my request for clarifications on the initial compension amount offered.
You are right I should have asked for clearer terms.
However, it's like I have to do this very often whenever they offer a job, because they don't provide the compensation amount or allocated time. I asked them specifically to do that about 2 months ago. I don't understand why that is so hard. It seems management is poor.
[Modifié le 2023-12-22 11:22 GMT]
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