| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18] > | Moving on from freelance translation, starting a new career Thread poster: James Greenfield
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Denis Danchenko 
Ukraine
Local time: 17:58
Member (2012)
English to Russian
+ ...
| Karon Thackston's course | Feb 25 |
Maryna Titova wrote:
Hi Denis,
I'd like to ask for your feedback on Karon Thackston's course? I'm planning to learn content writing so looking for real opinions.
Thanks in advance!
Hello Maryna,
I completed the online 'Step-by-Step Copywriting Course' that was offered by Marketing Words back in 2016.
I've not been able to confirm it's still there as the credentials for my member area don't seem to work.
The course helped me win a 'direct' client at the time.
Had stayed in the SEO trenches for a couple of years before I realised this breed of writing did not come naturally to me.
| | | | Michael Hughes
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:58
Member (2022)
Japanese to English
+ ...
| Why I feel career switching is not necessarily a longwinded or financially painful process | Feb 27 |
Lieven Malaise wrote:
I think most translators, apart from people that became a translator due to a career switch, have little more to offer than language knowledge (which can be valuable in other positions as well, of course) and translation skills.
I have a translation degree and have done nothing but translation until now. So if I ever will have to look for a job my options are limited to a position as an inhouse translator (the number of which I believe has significantly decreased over the years), some generic back office jobs or some easily accessible job for which no degree is required. It goes without saying that these will pay (far) less than my current income.
But I suppose a lot of people are in this situation. Most people that have followed a certain career path and want to (or have to) leave their industry, will be forced to seriously retrain themselves.
I would again be keen to emphasize that most professional jobs that require a degree normally don't need it to be in any particular subject. And while an entry-level role might mean taking a bit of a hit on income for a while, a lot of people may be underestimating how quickly this situation can be improved.
Yes, things are different for everyone, and there are a multitude of variables in the mix. But for what it's worth, here's my case study to try and illustrate my point:
- I went into marketing with a degree in Japanese and took industry qualifications along the way part-time (eventually culminating in an MBA a couple of years ago).
- I started in a entry level-ish role with a small organisation for the equivalent of around £30k (35k Euro) in today's money.
- After 15 months, I got an executive role (a grade or two higher than entry level) at a much larger institution with lots of progression opportunities, for around £39k (45k Euro).
- After a couple of years, I was promoted to a senior exec role on £45k (52k Euro) then to a manager role a year after that.
So in just 4 and a half years I had progressed to a managerial position. Since then, while I've moved around various different positions in the department to gain varied experience, I'm still on the same grade a decade later. I started the managerial grade on around £52k (61k Euro) and have moved up to around £66k/77k Euro plus 14.5% employer superannuation through statutory and performance-based increments. I work around 1,550 hours a year without the need to do overtime, so am able to supplement this with around 500 hours of translation/consultancy work, which brings in maybe another 20k Euro.
I've considered applying for senior manager roles the next grade up, but have calculated that the overtime that would likely require would severely limit me in developing my side business, to the point where I'd actually make less money and be less happy. It would only make sense if I was aiming for a Director position after that, which I'm currently not attracted to given the level of stress I know it involves while I have a young family.
From my perspective, there isn't any reason why someone who's worked full-time as a freelance translator for two or three decades couldn't reach, or even exceed, where I am in a period of 5 years if they so desired (especially given the rates they would likely be able to command as highly experienced translators working only part-time with limited capacity). I'm turning 40 this year. I may go for higher-level positions in the future in my main job, or I may not (depends in part on how my professional goals shape up, the success or failure of my side business, family situation and many other things). Most of my fellow team members are 15 to 20 years older than me, all degree-educated (mostly in languages come to think of it), and they've been happy where they are for decades. We come into the office once a week. Yes there's office politics, but we aren't even there most of the time.
Will there be employers who aren't keen on hiring someone older and from a freelance background for an entry level role because they don't think they'll 'fit'? Maybe some. Worst case scenario 9 in 10 are like that. So, just apply for ten times as many jobs as a fresh grad then. You only need one. I know which one I'd rather have working for me. Don't like the idea of working alongside 25 year olds? That's fine - you'll probably be twice as mature and competent and likely be moved up the ladder long before them.
The labour shortage is very real. Let's take as an example just one single industry in the UK which I happen to know well - the higher education sector. Head to www.jobs.ac.uk and type in 'administrator', 'coordinator' or some variant thereof and see how many hundreds of postings come up. You wouldn't believe how many posts are filled by temp staff, who are then quickly made permanent as soon as their manager is confident that they are at least reasonably good at doing 'stuff'. Then they get promoted and BOOM - it takes off from there.
| | | | Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:58
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
Michael Hughes wrote:
The labour shortage is very real.
Very useful and encouraging for the OP, thank you Michael.
Before anybody comes rampaging in here claiming that the above is hopelessly unrealistic and that such-and-such a sector is DOOMED, DOOMED I TELL YOU, please let me remind them that this is a report based on actual recent experience in the UK, which is where the OP is based.
I know that the OP is also living in a reasonably populous area and not that far from a major city, which has positive implications for demand/job openings.
One thing that I see me and time again in posts in other forums written by company staff about new joiners is that many of the latter struggle with even basic tasks such as reading things properly, deriving the right conclusions, and writing things correctly. That sort of thing should not be a problem for people with translation experience, nor should hitting deadlines. Gives you a leg up before you even start really.
Dan
| | | | Lieven Malaise
Belgium
Local time: 16:58
Member (2020)
French to Dutch
+ ...
I congratulate you on your achievements and I'm convinced your path is an example to people with the right mindset.
But I have a different mindset. I'm not a career-minded person. It has never interested me to climb any ladder whatsoever. I've been an inhouse translator for 5 years and as a youngster I was keen on delivering the best performance possible and I was even competitive in a sense that it made me proud if my department (me and my colleague) outperformed the other language... See more I congratulate you on your achievements and I'm convinced your path is an example to people with the right mindset.
But I have a different mindset. I'm not a career-minded person. It has never interested me to climb any ladder whatsoever. I've been an inhouse translator for 5 years and as a youngster I was keen on delivering the best performance possible and I was even competitive in a sense that it made me proud if my department (me and my colleague) outperformed the other language departments in terms of productivity and profitability. But that never translated into any ambition to achieve a higher position. I've always been more of a workhorse (which was obviously helpful in my freelancing career) than a leader.
But it was not my intention to complain about my position or possible future difficulties to earn enough money. I've always said that I wouldn't care if I need to step down and start earning (even a lot) less, and I mean that, on an personal level. I just hope it won't be necessary for the first 10 years to come, since I have 4 teenagers (ranging from 13 to 17 years old) to provide for. At least a few of them, and possibly all 4 of them, will start a higher education, so the financial challenges ahead are considerable and possibly unfeasible if I would have to give up my freelancing business in the coming years (something I'm not really afraid of, to be honest, at least not yet).
But after those 10 years? With my house being fully paid by then, I wouldn't bother even if I would only earn half of what I earn today. I have the instinct and mindset of a survivor (please note that I didn't say that I have the skills of a survivor 😂): I mainly look at what I need, not at what I desire.
[Bijgewerkt op 2024-02-28 08:15 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Dan Lucas wrote:
Before anybody comes rampaging in here claiming that the above is hopelessly unrealistic and that such-and-such a sector is DOOMED, DOOMED I TELL YOU, please let me remind them that this is a report based on actual recent experience in the UK, which is where the OP is based.
But a standard career path does not involve a five-year dip in pay when you switch jobs. You move sideways or up, rarely down.
An obvious sideways move for most translators would be into copywriting/editing. Here's what that looks like for me: moving from making £50k working part-time when I feel like it, to making £20k working full-time at someone else's bidding (yes, seriously, that's what your local university is offering graduates as writers/editors, Dan; three years of amassing student debt to work a whisker above minimum wage).
I know none of us is owed anything, blah blah blah, we make our own luck, blah blah blah, but that doesn't change the fact that the options for many of us are far from appealing, especially for people like me who are in their fifties. A degree of despondence is surely permissible?
Luckily I'm now feeling fairly confident I can hang on long enough...
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Michael Hughes wrote:
The labour shortage is very real. Let's take as an example just one single industry in the UK which I happen to know well - the higher education sector. Head to www.jobs.ac.uk and type in 'administrator', 'coordinator' or some variant thereof and see how many hundreds of postings come up. You wouldn't believe how many posts are filled by temp staff, who are then quickly made permanent as soon as their manager is confident that they are at least reasonably good at doing 'stuff'. Then they get promoted and BOOM - it takes off from there.
Thank you for your positive posts. It's really refreshing and I'm sure it's more useful to the OP and others in the same situation than the constant stream of doom and gloom.
| | | | Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:58
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
| Perhaps a bit unrealistic | Feb 28 |
Christopher Schröder wrote:
I know none of us is owed anything, blah blah blah, we make our own luck, blah blah blah, but that doesn't change the fact that the options for many of us are far from appealing, especially for people like me who are in their fifties. A degree of despondence is surely permissible?
50k a year is very respectable money for our part of the world. Is it permissible for you to be despondent that you might struggle to get work at the same level in a different job?
Shrug. Think you're being a bit zeitaku to be honest. You live out in the wilds where there are relatively few opportunities and are not prepared to relocate, you're older than either Michael or the OP, and as far as I can tell you have very little experience outside translation. I conclude that you're unlikely to be an obvious first choice for anybody unless you hustle a bit. Personally I'm sure that your skills and experience could be very useful to an employer, but it's them you need to convince, not me.
In the same way, the OP needs to hustle and to market himself and to push his comfort zone a bit. He undoubtedly has skills and abilities that could be applied in other jobs, but he will have to explain to prospective employers why they should consider him. None of it will come automatically. No kicks, no goals.
Dan
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Dan Lucas wrote:
Shrug. Think you're being a bit zeitaku to be honest. You live out in the wilds where there are relatively few opportunities and are not prepared to relocate, you're older than either Michael or the OP, and as far as I can tell you have very little experience outside translation. I conclude that you're unlikely to be an obvious first choice for anybody unless you hustle a bit. Personally I'm sure that your skills and experience could be very useful to an employer, but it's them you need to convince, not me.
Yes, it is unrealistic, but it wouldn't be unrealistic for people in many, many other professions.
Dan, Rachel, Michael - you've all moved into translation from elsewhere. Most(?) translators, including me, have zero experience anywhere else. That's a massive handicap that you may not entirely appreciate, not just when it comes to hard skills but also people skills, mindset, expectations and general dynamism. It's hard for old dogs to learn new tricks. Remember how hard it is/was for your grandparents to change their shopping day. Long-term freelancers may be almost unemployable in the corporate world. My partner says I wouldn't last a week in the civil service because I wouldn't know how to play the game. I've been roped into working on a translation project as part of a team this week for the first time in many, many years; I'm about ready jump off a cliff and it's only Wednesday.
Maybe I am spoilt, and obviously I could make concessions if I wanted to, but I worked hard to get where I am today and I reserve the right to be mildly resentful of it being taken away from me.
PS I actually live in the country's second-biggest city
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Michael Hughes
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:58
Member (2022)
Japanese to English
+ ...
I know the rep it has, but stay with me here.
Here in the UK, the government pays language graduates (or any graduate with knowledge of a second language) 27k tax free to train as teachers. They are in desperate need. Once qualified after a year, the minimum you can expect is £30k plus 23.68% employer pension contribution, so in effect £37k if compared to freelancer income. In a maximum of five years (as schools have discretion to move people up faster based on previous work exper... See more I know the rep it has, but stay with me here.
Here in the UK, the government pays language graduates (or any graduate with knowledge of a second language) 27k tax free to train as teachers. They are in desperate need. Once qualified after a year, the minimum you can expect is £30k plus 23.68% employer pension contribution, so in effect £37k if compared to freelancer income. In a maximum of five years (as schools have discretion to move people up faster based on previous work experience and performance), you can expect over £41k (£51k with employer superannuation). In London and the Home Counties, add another £2-8k to that. That's without taking on any extra responsibilities, which carry a supplement. It's also without accounting for any extra freelance income someone with an established reputation and client base in something like translation could earn on the side.
Such a common option for second careers is teaching that there is even a govt-funded support organisation for it: https://nowteach.org.uk/
Obviously, the situation will be different in every country. And I acknowledge that, even with the incentives here in the UK, there are many who won't find the idea of teaching GCSE French to teenagers in a state school particularly appealing. But there are other options after qualifying - the independent/private sector (which pays even better), the international sector (where you get employer-funded accommodation, insurance, flights home and free tuition for dependents and can live in a different country every year if that's your thing) and whatnot.
Some would say they wouldn't go near any kind of teaching with a 50 foot barge pole and why do I think they can't get anyone to stay in it etc etc. That's fine. My point is to highlight just ONE other option, alongside project management, marketing, HR and a whole host of other careers which are overwhelmingly degree-educated but not degree-specific where you can realistically build up decent earnings in a period of 5 years while still continuing to translate in your downtime. The latter roles are also increasingly remotely based too, offering many similar perks to the life of a freelancer - if not quite to the same degree. I suspect being located in major cities over time will become less and less of a factor over the long term for the same reason. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:58
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
Christopher Schröder wrote:
PS I actually live in the country's second-biggest city
Sorry, for some reason I have always thought you lived out in the wilds of Brechfa!
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Christopher Schröder wrote:
Dan Lucas wrote:
Shrug. Think you're being a bit zeitaku to be honest. You live out in the wilds where there are relatively few opportunities and are not prepared to relocate, you're older than either Michael or the OP, and as far as I can tell you have very little experience outside translation. I conclude that you're unlikely to be an obvious first choice for anybody unless you hustle a bit. Personally I'm sure that your skills and experience could be very useful to an employer, but it's them you need to convince, not me.
Yes, it is unrealistic, but it wouldn't be unrealistic for people in many, many other professions.
Dan, Rachel, Michael - you've all moved into translation from elsewhere. Most(?) translators, including me, have zero experience anywhere else. That's a massive handicap that you may not entirely appreciate, not just when it comes to hard skills but also people skills, mindset, expectations and general dynamism. It's hard for old dogs to learn new tricks. Remember how hard it is/was for your grandparents to change their shopping day. Long-term freelancers may be almost unemployable in the corporate world. My partner says I wouldn't last a week in the civil service because I wouldn't know how to play the game. I've been roped into working on a translation project as part of a team this week for the first time in many, many years; I'm about ready jump off a cliff and it's only Wednesday.
Maybe I am spoilt, and obviously I could make concessions if I wanted to, but I worked hard to get where I am today and I reserve the right to be mildly resentful of it being taken away from me.
PS I actually live in the country's second-biggest city
I think most people earning 50k while working part time from the comfort of their own home would be reluctant to give that up and I think you're entirely correct that it will be hard to match that anywhere else.
I'm pretty sure that's not the position the OP is in though, or many other translators who are reading this. A starter salary or admin job may well be a perfectly valid option for many and there's nothing at all wrong with that.
(I didn't come to translation from elsewhere by the way, unless you count two 18-month stints in fairly low-level jobs when I was getting started).
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A very good suggestion, Michael. Teaching is a good option for those with the right aptitude. (I'd be in prison within weeks!)
Sorry, Rachel, for some reason I thought you started out as an engineer wingwalking on wind turbine blades...
Dan, I was in the Lampeter area for 25 years but I've been in sunny Abertawe for the past two.
I'm pretty sure that's not the position the OP is in though, or many other translators who are reading this. A starter salary or admin job may well be a perfectly valid option for many and there's nothing at all wrong with that.
True. I think the OP is long gone by now, and most of us active here are well-established and of a certain vintage. I would think admin would be a step down for almost all of us.
I suppose for full disclosure, on a personal note, I should add that I'm not physically capable of working full-time in an office job. In a parallel universe I could've been on a disability pension for years now. Remote working is the only realistic option for me.
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Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:58
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
Christopher Schröder wrote:
Dan, I was in the Lampeter area for 25 years but I've been in sunny Abertawe for the past two.
Wow, that's a big change in itself, eh, from bucolic bliss to urban excitement...
Dan
[Edited at 2024-02-28 11:22 GMT]
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Lieven Malaise wrote:
I just hope it won't be necessary for the first 10 years to come, since I have 4 teenagers (ranging from 13 to 17 years old) to provide for. At least a few of them, and possibly all 4 of them, will start a higher education, so the financial challenges ahead are considerable and possibly unfeasible if I would have to give up my freelancing business in the coming years (something I'm not really afraid of, to be honest, at least not yet).
[Bijgewerkt op 2024-02-28 08:15 GMT]
Just out of curiosity: If your children will listen to you, what would you advise them to study?
| | | | | I worked in retail... | Feb 28 |
for a wine merchant before I entered the world of publishing as an editor/translator. From that, I became a full time translator. I have done quite well for myself and lived comfortably - but I'm not rich by any means - putting 4 kids through university. I'm proud of what I have achieved. I also live in the countryside, near Wales, and I enjoy it a lot (and my dog too). This is to say that we all come from different backgrounds (I even moved countries) and we shouldn't really generalise. Granted... See more for a wine merchant before I entered the world of publishing as an editor/translator. From that, I became a full time translator. I have done quite well for myself and lived comfortably - but I'm not rich by any means - putting 4 kids through university. I'm proud of what I have achieved. I also live in the countryside, near Wales, and I enjoy it a lot (and my dog too). This is to say that we all come from different backgrounds (I even moved countries) and we shouldn't really generalise. Granted I'm quite old now and the market has changed, but my daughter is doing what I'm doing and she is quite successful as well. I think you need to be good at managing your business and putting the effort in if you want to be successful. I don't see that in many young people. Luckily, my children are bright enough. ▲ Collapse
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