| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53] > | Ten common myths about translation quality
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| | Kay Denney 
France
Local time: 02:59
French to English
| On bathing in a multicultural atmosphere as a child | Jul 27, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
I personally think, or rather know from my own experience, that most good translators come from multicultural backgrounds -- or at least have lived in different countries. Very few people not exposed to different languages from their early childhood become translators. It is not enough just to learn a particular language in school to be a successful translator, especially in some language pairs. There are exceptions, of course. It might be easier in the English-Swedish pair, but what about Urdu-Swedish, or Hindi-Danish?
Judging from the CVs of the excellent translators I had the privilege of working with at the high-class agency I PMed at, I would say that actually, those who had been brought up multilingual were rather rare. There were far more who had worked d@mn hard at learning languages.
Once, a translator passing through Paris stopped by at the office and we went for lunch together. She was almost apologetic that she hadn't bathed in a multicultural atmosphere as a child (despite being a top-class translator), which prompted me to review how many translators it was the case for. We came to the non-scientific conclusion, based on our empirical knowledge gleaned from raising bilingual children, that in fact you learn each language separately, in a separate compartment in your brain, and there are not necessarily any bridges between these compartments. My kids don't think in one language before saying something in another, and rarely find themselves stuck because there's a word they want to use in English and they only know it in French. They simply move from one language to the other according to who they speak to.
And they don't want to be translators. They are happy to speak English on top of French in that it's a door to the rest of the world, they both want to study in an English-speaking country, but more because they have found more interesting courses than because they want to improve their English.
| | | | | Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member because it was not in line with site rule | | They are most likely Polish born people | Jul 27, 2013 |
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
Do you actually believe, Giovanni, there are 600 Italian people, born and raised in Italy, who speak Polish well? I would love to meet some of them. I have actually never met anyone, in my life, perhaps one person, who spoke good Polish and was not raised in Poland, including some members of my own family. I have gone to many language seminars in my life, studied in various places, yet, I have not met too many people like that -- what are the odds that they really exist somewhere?
[Edited at 2013-07-27 14:39 GMT]
Just because you never met one, they don't exist?  Have you met anyone like that? Where would they have learned the language? I am not saying they don't exist, I am just wondering where they are, and how they managed to mastered this one of the hardest languages in the world.
Looking for PL>IT translators? They do exist.
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 07:29
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
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SITE LOCALIZER
Mark Benson wrote:
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
Mark Benson wrote:
Translation is not a human right
Of course it is not. It is the personal fiefdom of native translators. [Edited at 2013-07-27 14:56 GMT]
I resent the way you fail to honor the thoughts I have shared in this discussion, pretending that being right or winning has some ulterior importance.
Should the level at which you are conducting yourself here be taken as representative of the quality to be expected from a non-native translator?
No, only representative of the quality that can be expected from a native translator putting forth posts in a serious discussion with the sole objective of playing agent provocateur.
Such are best ignored, but I deigned to repl,y though in the same non-serious fashion, for which you should be thankful.
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Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 07:29
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | No worries, G, continue with the discussion | Jul 27, 2013 |
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
Job posters click on it because it is there. Were it were not there, do you think many clients would demand native translators? I don't think clients have that much of an understanding of translation to know what makes a good translator or a translation. If this thread is any evidence, even translators don't seem to have any clue of this.
It is like going into a supermarket where all these unwanted goodies are tantalizingly displayed. Ninety-nine times of out hundred, you come way your shopping bags bulging with things you hardly needed and which have burned a big hole in your pocket. You bought them not because you needed them, but because you can see them before you.
Same is the case with the native-only button. It is tantalizingly displayed on the job form and job posters unthinkingly click on it, just as they click on the Trados Only button even for jobs involving the translation of scanned images, or subtitles.
[Edited at 2013-07-27 15:05 GMT]
I hope not many of your potential clients will read your comments. Nobody likes to be called stupid...
That is ok, please go ahead with the discussion.
| | | | Kay Denney
France
Local time: 02:59
French to English
| translating supermarket! | Jul 27, 2013 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
This site can help by deemphasizing the native-only condition in its job postings and translator databases by withdrawing the native-only button. Encouragingly, there is consensus on this matter among both parties of this debate, and proz.com should consider implementing this forthwith.
Well you could always use a support ticket to make the suggestion couldn't you? or set up a rival website without such a button (please send me the link if you do!).
I don't know about the others here, but I have not requested the withdrawal of a button that would bring me work if I were interested in the stuff available here!
I think if it were withdrawn, a lot of clients would demand its immediate reinstatement, since so many of them click on it.
As for comparing it to junk in the supermarket that you buy even though you didn't really want it... well I might sometimes be tempted by something that's not on my list, but it would have to be great quality and great value for money, and the sort of thing I do generally like, to even consider splashing out, so you see the clients who click on it probably do vaguely want it even if they hadn't considered it before filling in the criteria for the translator they are seeking.
| | | | | Thanks for your kindness! | Jul 27, 2013 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
That is ok, please go ahead with the discussion.
BTW, when job posters use the native button, why don't you write to them to tell them what you have so eloquently expressed in this thread? They might appreciate your writing skills and get back to you, for example. Sometimes, every little helps, as Mr Tesco would say!
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 07:29
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | Thank you for your solicitousness | Jul 27, 2013 |
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
That is ok, please go ahead with the discussion.
BTW, when job posters use the native button, why don't you write to them to tell them what you have so eloquently expressed in this thread? They might appreciate your writing skills and get back to you, for example. Sometimes, every little helps, as Mr Tesco would say!
But, this discussion is at another level than personal. In other words, it is not about me. But thanks any way for your concern.
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| I don't know exactly... | Jul 27, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
Do you actually believe, Giovanni, there are 600 Italian people, born and raised in Italy, who speak Polish well?
but, out of 59,685,227 millions of Italians, there might well be 600 that can actually translate from Polish...
| | | | | that's ok, B... | Jul 27, 2013 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
But, this discussion is at another level than personal. In other words, it is not about me. But thanks any way for your concern.
I'll leave it to that...
| | | | | The outsourcers, as usually business management people, not linguists | Jul 27, 2013 |
don't know all the details about the complexities of language proficiency levels, especially in mulltiiingual environments. Apparently they don't do any research how many indigenous inhabitants of the English speaking countries speak other languages well, and they go by what they have been told.
I don't actually know where these ideas about native translation come from -- I went to different schools in my life -- all language and writing related, and I had never heard anything li... See more don't know all the details about the complexities of language proficiency levels, especially in mulltiiingual environments. Apparently they don't do any research how many indigenous inhabitants of the English speaking countries speak other languages well, and they go by what they have been told.
I don't actually know where these ideas about native translation come from -- I went to different schools in my life -- all language and writing related, and I had never heard anything like that, until a few years ago, mostly in the EU context -- that nativeness can be a requirement. I think the IT people must teach it, since they decided that a native person will be a better operator (not really a translator) of their CAT tools. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 07:29
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | I have wondered about the same thing many times | Jul 27, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
don't know all the details about the complexities of language proficiency levels, especially in mulltiiingual environments. Apparently they don't do any research how many indigenous inhabitants of the English speaking countries speak other languages well, and they go by what they have been told.
I don't actually know where these ideas about native translation come from -- I went to different schools in my life -- all language and writing related, and I had never heard anything like that, until a few years ago, mostly in the EU context -- that nativeness can be a requirement. I think the IT people must teach it, since they decided that a native person will be a better operator (not really a translator) of their CAT tools.
I have wondered about this myself, as to the origin of this native-only thing. My feeling is that it is more a proz.com specific thing, for I hear less of it in other sites, at least it is not so wide-spread there. Proz.com has made it the main feature around which all its operations revolve - such as job posting, translator lists, translator profiles, and so on.
[Edited at 2013-07-27 16:06 GMT]
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Trisha F
United Kingdom
Local time: 01:59
English to Spanish
+ ...
This discussion is quite heated. There are three more pages of comments since the last time I popped in.
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
Agency hires a cheap, incompetent native translator into Slobovian. End-client gets the job checked, and it stinks. They complain harshly to the agency.
Agency replies they hired a verified thoroughbred Sloboviak, born and living in Lower Slobovia. Says they can't help it if those slobs can't master their own lingo. Agency feels it's of the hook!
I have seen this happen many times at an agency I know well. They boast about employing native translators only and will not check if non-natives and even natives from other language variants can do a good job. The complaints coming from clients are numerous. I mean, there should not be that many complaints. After all, their website states that the translations are performed exclusively by natives and it is actually true. Why are there still serious problems if the native criteria is enough?
What they don't say is: "we go for really cheap native translators sometimes and try to make them lower their rates even further". They don't really test translators rigorously. If you are a native speaker and have 3+ years of experience you are hired. Of course, some people may lie on their CV. I do not want to increase the heat in this argument but I am also a fervent believer that experience is not a guarantee either. Many people spend decades doing the same thing wrong.
The agency has a Marketplace Internet portal where translators bid. It was so funny to see how the same incompetent translator seemed to be attached to his smartphone all day and took the job literally five seconds after we posted it. He didn't even read what it was about. This native translator was absolutely rubbish and had already hundreds of client complaints on his profile. Why the agency kept letting him take jobs was beyond me. He must have been dead-cheap.
I would prefer MT translation to non-native translation. I can give many reasons, but I don't have time to sit on the forum all day long...
Seriously? You prefer a document plagued with fuzzy matches and funny sentences to a document proof-read by a highly proficient non-native translator? I would agree with this statement if I had to choose between MT and a rubbish non-native translator but why would one assume that all non-natives lack proficiency? I would also prefer to go for MT if the alternative was a rubbish native translator.
It may be true that statistically a native speaker may be the safest bet but agencies should test everyone for all of the language pairs they claim to master. It is an expensive process perhaps but then again they boast on their websites about their stringent selection standards and confidently state that they test translators thoroughly. If this is not true they they are conning their clients out of their hard-earned money. Big time.
Clients do not need to be proficient in languages, they are seeking for professional advice and they trust agencies as experts. That is the way it is supposed to work (I do not need to understand how cars work if I am taking a car to a professional mechanic anyway). Too bad many people who run agencies are either monolingual or clueless about translation so they have no means to assess whether translators are competent or not, regardless of their native/non-native status. There is nothing more depressing than having some overpaid monolingual yuppie from an agency's admin team giving you a lecture on native vs. non-native translators. I say it because I have had this experience.
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Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
Do you actually believe, Giovanni, there are 600 Italian people, born and raised in Italy, who speak Polish well?
but, out of 59,685,227 millions of Italians, there might well be 600 that can actually translate from Polish...
[Edited at 2013-07-27 16:11 GMT]
| | | | Lincoln Hui
Hong Kong
Local time: 09:59
Member
Chinese to English
+ ...
| "Native" in the strictest sense in this post | Jul 27, 2013 |
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
Lincoln Hui wrote:
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
Of course there are many incompetent native translators, but you will agree that there are far more competent native translators in a language pair than non-natives? Why should a client pick a non-native when they are thousands of linguistically competent native translators?
Unless there is legitimate scientific research demonstrating that, I see no reason why it should be so. It reeks of something that people believe is true because it sounds plausible, which is pretty much the definition of a myth. A myth, after all, could hardly be called one unless it has been perpetuated to some degree, usually by people who simply pass on what they have read elsewhere without trying to verify it or apply critical thinking to it.
The elephant in the room is that you have yet to define what makes a person native in a language. You give me one and I'm pretty sure that I can give you a counterexample that occurs too frequently to be dismissed as an exception. And I am quite certain that most people who insist on using a "native speaker" or "mother tongue" are using the most stringent definition possible. I have already demonstrated that this definition simply does not work for Chinese-English pairs.
I can only talk about my experience... in my 20 year long career as a translator and editor, I must have checked hundreds of translations. Are you going to be surprised if I told you that 99% of non-natives' translations were useless? Of course, I might have been unlucky. Despite this, I wouldn't stop other people trying, because I'm sure there are pretty good "non-natives" out there. Also, as you say, what is nativeness?
As far as sounding as a myth, you need to educate your clients about this. But many have had their fingers burnt already. So, it might be difficult.
I would not be surprised, nor would I be if you told me that 99% of natives' translations were useless. I would venture a wild guess that 99% of the non-natives who submitted useless transations would also commit other offences like failing to research terms properly, misunderstanding context, lack of comprehension, etc.
And as I have also said previously, as in every profession, translators know very little about their profession as a whole outside of their very, very small circle of expertise. I'm sure you will agree that Italian education is not nearly as widespread as English, nor nearly as frequently used outside its core geography. It stands to reason then that someone for whom English is a second langauge is far more likely to have learned it from childhood, far more likely to use it on a regular basis, and far more likely to be proficient in it, than someone for whom Italian is a second language. (I have not verified this assumption, of course)
For languages other than English, the idea that non-natives should avoid translating into it is far more plausible, and I am now venturing into territory for which I know I have little knowledge. I do believe that a greater proportion of English>Chinese jobs specify native speakers only compared to Chinese>English jobs, which I consider to be a sign that sanity is not dead. (Again, I have not verfied this) But my observation is that many of the most acrimonious comments against non-native translators have involved English, a large number of them coming from native English speakers whose experience with their second language is that they started learning it in secondary school, if not later, which is often not the case with those who learned English as a second language.
And even for non-English languages, I would be wary of making generalizations. Chinese is typically considered a difficult language for non-native speakers to learn, especially those who grew up in an alphabetical language. But my observation is that the ones who clawed, battled and persevered their way through to become translators are very, very good, and their writing is perfectly capable of putting this author to shame (as I do to many native English speakers). Can they be challenged? Yes, but only through tests that would frustrate most native speakers of Chinese as well, and if anything I would be more concerned about their ability to distinguish certain nuances in reading. Those who are able to do so, and thus be considered competent to translate from Chinese to their native language, are typically very good writers in Chinese. Some may certainly be uncomfortable doing L1>Chinese translations, and I have no problem at all with them making the decision not to, yet I would definitely refrain from passing generalization on this.
I will also point out that as in all other areas, the market of translation in China is massive and a decidedly mixed bag in terms of quality. The western world knows of Chinglish because they can read English, but many of the most egregious crimes against translation are committed by native Chinese speakers translating from English into Chinese due to their suboptimal grasp of the English language. In many cases one would be better served finding one of the aforementioned non-native Chinese speakers, even one who isn't a professional translator. The Chinese section of KudoZ frequently sees questions on English terms and expressions that I would consider commonplace. And my belief is that translators who ask questions on KudoZ are at worst middle-of-the-pack, because they at least have the sense of responsibility to ask for help when they are unsure. Worse things happen.
Of course, this may be the converse of the situation in English - the language so alien to non-natives that it prunes away all but the best and brightest learners, and one must really be very good just to maintain his/her sanity when reading Chinese newspapers. I know very little of the situation in most other languages and there is no reason why the situation in Chinese should apply to any other language, which is why I decline to acknowledge anyone's authority on the subject of native language as it applies to the profession as a whole; we can set conventions that apply to a very limited group of languages, nothing more.
[Edited at 2013-07-27 17:40 GMT]
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