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| | Phil Hand 
China
Local time: 10:19
Chinese to English
| Ideals vs practice | Jul 26, 2013 |
Lincoln Hui wrote:
"300 page book on Chinese medicine to be translated from Chinese to English. Applicants must have excellent knowledge of traditional Chinese medicine. Mother tongue must be English."
Hypothetical, but perfectly possible. Good luck with that.
This is very true, especially in our pair, but I think you're confusing two things. One is the ideal: a translator who has perfect comprehension of her source and writes excellently in her target language. That's overwhelmingly likely to be a native speaker of the target language. The second is the reality of the market: what do you do when you can't find the ideal translator? In the example you give, I agree that one is much more likely to find a competent translator among native Chinese speakers. That's your best second choice; but a second choice nonetheless.
Particularly because if you actually want to sell any copies of this book, you're going to need a seriously good English editor to make it readable. Seriously, go and check out the top-selling books on TCM. A lot of them are written by westerners, not because they know more TCM, but because they know how to write their own languages in an accessible way.
| | | | Lincoln Hui
Hong Kong
Local time: 10:19
Member
Chinese to English
+ ...
| I have already spelled out how "native" is perceived by laymen | Jul 26, 2013 |
Ty Kendall wrote:
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
It is the ethnicity point in Wikipedia, Ty, just in case you did not know where this restriction falls)
[Edited at 2013-07-26 12:21 GMT]
"With American society growing more diverse, employers have increasingly required that some employees be fluent in languages other than English. For example, a business that provides services to Spanish-speaking customers might have a sound business reason for requiring that some of its employees speak Spanish. As with English fluency requirements, requirements for fluency in foreign languages must actually be necessary for the positions for which they are imposed."
http://www.eeoc.gov/policy/docs/national-origin.html
What you need to bear in mind is that:
a) these rules apply to the employer/employee relationship, which by and large, does not apply to us.
b) "be necessary for the position for which they are imposed" - I'd say translation is a profession where a language stipulation is pretty necessary.
Also:
anti-discrimination laws prevent employers, absent a recognized business necessity, , from basing employment decisions on English proficiency
http://www.fvldlaw.com/?t=40&an=916&format=xml
Please pay attention to the bold, underlined bit. [Edited at 2013-07-26 13:09 GMT]
English Fluency Requirement does not equal Native English Speaker Requirement, regardless of how stringent said fluency requirement might be for the position. This is a distinction that I would hope a "native speaker" of English is capable of making.
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:19
Hebrew to English
| Yep Bernhard! | Jul 26, 2013 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Ty Kendall wrote:
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
In contrast, when a European knows two languages, say French or English, he only knows two languages, the standard version of French and the standard version of English, because the dialectical diversity in these languages has already been lost as a result of universalisation of education.
You think Europe lacks dialects? Every nation language is used in only one dialect? Correct?
Dubbed in Swabian Dialect: funny video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmHBSlyumkE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swabian_German
A lifetime ago, when I studied Deutsch, I was told (maybe I should say warned?) by my German teacher that I might have studied German for 10 years but if/when I find myself in some Bavarian street in the middle of nowhere, I probably wouldn't understand 95% of what was being said around me, I was told learning a dialect would have to be my first order of business.
[Edited at 2013-07-26 13:21 GMT]
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:19
Hebrew to English
Lincoln Hui wrote:
English Fluency Requirement does not equal Native English Speaker Requirement, regardless of how stringent said fluency requirement might be for the position. This is a distinction that I would hope a "native speaker" of English is capable of making.
I never claimed it did. I'm just pointing out the relevant laws (anti-discrimination) which Lilliana is referring to, which as I have pointed out, only apply to the employer/employee relationship - which does not really apply to most translators anyway.
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| See, the problem is, that in the US I don't think anything can be called | Jul 26, 2013 |
Native Fluency Requirement-- perhaps top fluency requirement, and then they can test the fluency, if they want to, but they cannot ask you which languages your grandparents spoke, your parents, which language you speak at home, in most formal scenarios. You cannot really ask too many background questions, unless the person volunteers to tell you more about themselves.
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 07:49
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | Which is why language attrition is a very relevant thing | Jul 26, 2013 |
Ty Kendall wrote:
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Ty Kendall wrote:
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
In contrast, when a European knows two languages, say French or English, he only knows two languages, the standard version of French and the standard version of English, because the dialectical diversity in these languages has already been lost as a result of universalisation of education.
You think Europe lacks dialects? Every nation language is used in only one dialect? Correct?
Dubbed in Swabian Dialect: funny video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmHBSlyumkE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swabian_German
A lifetime ago, when I studied Deutsch, I was told (maybe I should say warned?) by my German teacher that I might have studied German for 10 years but if/when I find myself in some Bavarian street in the middle of nowhere, I probably wouldn't understand 95% of what was being said around me, I was told learning a dialect would have to be my first order of business.
Which is why, if you have lived 20 years out of your native area, you cannot claim to be up to date on your native language, because there is no way you can keep up with the dialectical developments of your language, which are not picked up by newspapers, internet, books, and movies, as all these operate predominantly on the standard version of languages.
To be in tune with the way languages develop in the streets you need to live in your native land and interact with the people on the streets.
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:19
Hebrew to English
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
Which is why, if you have lived 20 years out of your native area, you cannot claim to be up to date on your native language, because there is no way you can keep up with the dialectical developments of your language, which are not picked up by newspapers, internet, books, and movies, as all these operate predominantly on the standard version of languages.
To be in tune with the way languages develop in the streets you need to live in your native land and interact with the people on the streets.
It's a good job I do then.
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 07:49
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | Overwhelmingly may be, but not always | Jul 26, 2013 |
Phil Hand wrote:
Lincoln Hui wrote:
"300 page book on Chinese medicine to be translated from Chinese to English. Applicants must have excellent knowledge of traditional Chinese medicine. Mother tongue must be English."
Hypothetical, but perfectly possible. Good luck with that.
This is very true, especially in our pair, but I think you're confusing two things. One is the ideal: a translator who has perfect comprehension of her source and writes excellently in her target language. That's overwhelmingly likely to be a native speaker of the target language.
Overwhelmingly perhaps, but not always. Which is why it is a dangerous rule to make. This is more so with international languages like English, where the likelihood of finding a proficient non-native translator is even higher.
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Erik Freitag
Germany
Local time: 03:19
Member (2006)
Dutch to German
+ ...
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
To be in tune with the way languages develop in the streets you need to live in your native land and interact with the people on the streets.
Yes, but only if you're translating chit-chat in a local dialect. I doubt there's a big market for that. Although I'm still quite proficient in the dialect I have been exposed to as a child and a youngster (and I sometimes even use it for conversation with my dear wife), I have never ever needed it for professional purposes.
| | | | | I believe it is better if the person lives in the country the language of which | Jul 26, 2013 |
they translate into. There are some exceptions, but the L1 of someone who has lived outside of the country where their L1 is spoken for more than ten years, may feel stilted, if they don't constantly work on the language, and speak it a lot, like close to 50% of the time.
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 07:49
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | It is relevant for some areas of translation | Jul 26, 2013 |
efreitag wrote:
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
To be in tune with the way languages develop in the streets you need to live in your native land and interact with the people on the streets.
Yes, but only if you're translating chit-chat in a local dialect. I doubt there's a big market for that. Although I'm still quite proficient in the dialect I have been exposed to as a child and a youngster (and I sometimes even use it for conversation with my dear wife), I have never ever needed it for professional purposes.
Ads, films and literature are some translation areas that quickly come to mind where this kind of street knowledge of languages would be very relevant. Ads and films are thriving areas where a lot of translation happens, with ads and films being developed in one language and then localized into many languages.
Literature is being constantly produced in all languages and they are being constantly translated into other languages. So this again is another area where this kind of knowledge would be of critical importance.
[Edited at 2013-07-26 13:50 GMT]
| | | | Lincoln Hui
Hong Kong
Local time: 10:19
Member
Chinese to English
+ ...
| Ideal vs practice | Jul 26, 2013 |
Particularly because if you actually want to sell any copies of this book, you're going to need a seriously good English editor to make it readable. Seriously, go and check out the top-selling books on TCM. A lot of them are written by westerners, not because they know more TCM, but because they know how to write their own languages in an accessible way.
Phil Hand wrote:
Lincoln Hui wrote:
"300 page book on Chinese medicine to be translated from Chinese to English. Applicants must have excellent knowledge of traditional Chinese medicine. Mother tongue must be English."
Hypothetical, but perfectly possible. Good luck with that.
This is very true, especially in our pair, but I think you're confusing two things. One is the ideal: a translator who has perfect comprehension of her source and writes excellently in her target language. That's overwhelmingly likely to be a native speaker of the target language. The second is the reality of the market: what do you do when you can't find the ideal translator? In the example you give, I agree that one is much more likely to find a competent translator among native Chinese speakers. That's your best second choice; but a second choice nonetheless.
I quote the last paragraph first to illustrate a crucial point: translators skew demographics to the extreme. It is overwhelmingly likely that writers on Chinese Medicine are Chinese writing in Chinese - we are talking worldwide here - yet the exceptions would likely dominate the English market, for example.
In the general population, the odds of one's second language being on the same level as a native speaker are extremely low, but where translators are concerned you are picking only from those who have either studied their second language intensively, or lived and breathed that language for a long period of time. The sample ratios are not the same.
Let's say that 50% of the Hong Kong population are not functional in English (sadly I'm not sure this number is all that far off). Would 50% of Hong Kong translators working in English also be non-functional in English? What is extremely unlikely with the general population may not be all that unlikely when it comes to translators, and there are any number of analogies that I can make with regards to this: how much of the general population knows about ProZ, compared to professional translators?
Again we are talking about the definition of native: are you a native speaker because you were born into it, or are you a native speaker because you understand the language natively? In countries where English is the predominant language, study of a second language rarely occurs before the secondary level, while in many first-world economies study of English begins in the Kindergarten phase on some level and continues through the education system, and the educated elite use English on an everyday basis.
Clients and agencies will make their assumptions based on the demographics of the general population that they are a part of, not the translator population. This is why many Americans find the idea of having multiple native languages difficult to accept, and why translation agencies will have registration forms that say "translators will only translate into their native language", and allow you to choose only one. When I see one of these forms, I click the back button. There is a thread now where someone reported a PM telling him, "Excuse me?! There is no way you have translated 300 words in 30 minutes." I'm waiting any day now for someone to tell me, "Excuse me?! There is no way you are native in both English and Chinese." And unfortunately there are plenty of clients/agencies who set up "native language" as their first roadblock,
---------------------------
I am also calling bull on the idea that you can have perfect comprehension of a language if you are not natively proficient in it. Reading is easier than writing, yes, but it is no longer true at the far end of the difficulty curve. A writer controls the logic of his or her word flow, a reader does not. Long convoluted sentences used in academic and other high-nosed writing such as this post may make perfect sense to the writer but present a mountain of difficulties to decipher, much like drawing vs. navigating a maze. And if it is highly unlikely that a non-native writer can write well enough to pass for a native, surely it is equally unlikely that a non-native reader can correctly comprehend such sentences, because few enough native readers are capable of that to start with. After all, Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo.
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efreitag wrote:
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
To be in tune with the way languages develop in the streets you need to live in your native land and interact with the people on the streets.
Yes, but only if you're translating chit-chat in a local dialect. I doubt there's a big market for that. Although I'm still quite proficient in the dialect I have been exposed to as a child and a youngster (and I sometimes even use it for conversation with my dear wife), I have never ever needed it for professional purposes.
It would actually be very hard to "lose your dialect", even if you're not using it much because it is/was the first language you learn(ed), so to speak. At least it is where I come from. It's very engrained in your brain. I speak with my folks often, using the dialect of my youth, and have no problems.
Visiting and/or living again at the place of your youth after many years abroad will definitely enable you to learn new phrases of dialect used there, no doubt, but you're talking about very few changes, and, as Eric says, that's usually not an issue with regard to translations. Lots of modern stuff is also used in the standard language, and it sometimes originates from dialect or from other languages. As far as German films, ads etc. are concerned, most use standard German with some flavor of dialect (in the the way that German sounds, and sometimes through a character that speaks dialect or a mix of dialect and standard).
And the video link I posted above opens up good examples of Swabian dialect which I don't speak myself but understand fairly well, since I have had and still have some exposure through my relatives in the Stuttgart area. I find it great to be able to listen to it over the internet. Not just because these videos are hilarious but they are actually a way to be exposed to and learn to better understand the dialect, spoken today in that area.
B
[Edited at 2013-07-26 14:50 GMT]
| | | | | I think it is is a very individual thing, and many people lose their L1 | Jul 26, 2013 |
almost completely. Some hold on to their L1 and speak it quite well even after 30 years in a different country. Children may lose their L1 more easily, and it often happens. Polish-speaking, or Russian-speaking people, don't really speak any special dialects -- the more educated people -- at least this was the story in the past, so they would not really have their own dialect, but rather the standard language that they spoke in everyday life.
| | | | Kay Denney
France
Local time: 03:19
French to English
| come off it Bala! | Jul 26, 2013 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
To be in tune with the way languages develop in the streets you need to live in your native land and interact with the people on the streets.
Not in this day and age. With Facebook I'm in regular contact with all sorts of people living in England, including my niece, who often posts funny stuff, so I think I'm well aware of developments in spoken language without being in the street.
And quite frankly most of the new expressions I learn would never make it into a translation!
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