| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | Providing references Thread poster: Jasmina Towers
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| References for the CIoL are one of my reasons for not giving references to clients | Feb 7, 2018 |
A reference for a professional body - ATA, BDÜ, CIoL, ITI, or whichever you join... is given once and for all. You are then a member, and have met the professional requirements they set. You have probably signed their code of conduct and have a certain number of years' professional experience, so that should serve for most clients.
As Sheila says, the same applies to the 'red P' here on Proz.com.
It is in practice at least as good for ISO purposes as collecting new re... See more A reference for a professional body - ATA, BDÜ, CIoL, ITI, or whichever you join... is given once and for all. You are then a member, and have met the professional requirements they set. You have probably signed their code of conduct and have a certain number of years' professional experience, so that should serve for most clients.
As Sheila says, the same applies to the 'red P' here on Proz.com.
It is in practice at least as good for ISO purposes as collecting new references.
The important thing is that you do not give the names of clients to their competitors or potential competitors.
The other point is that freelancers work for many different clients, who come and go. It could take up a lot of time asking for references, and clients have to spend time giving them... For years I had at least one new client every month on average, and I would not dream of asking my best regular clients to produce that number of references.
I too have lost a client after asking her to give me a reference for another client... That was in the early days, when I was really sorry.
I do not ask for WWAs, and in fact asked Proz.com staff to hide one! I no longer wished to work for a particular client, and they gave me a glowing WWA to try and persuade me to think again, or at least not to tell others why I did not want to work for them...
Admittedly, I might have asked for one or two WWAs if clients had not given them first, and they are a useful answer to agencies who say they must have references. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Diana Obermeyer 
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:21
Member (2013)
German to English
+ ...
| apples and oranges | Feb 7, 2018 |
1) If a good relationship with an outsourcer exists, they will often be willing to provide references ***where it matters*** and provided it is a one-off. Another agency doesn't usually fall under that criterion. Membership - here or for associations do, and tenders for government contracts etc. may. You only do it once (or rarely for tenders). The client can expect not to get hassled.
A good client with whom a good working relationship exists will care enough to help out for membership o... See more 1) If a good relationship with an outsourcer exists, they will often be willing to provide references ***where it matters*** and provided it is a one-off. Another agency doesn't usually fall under that criterion. Membership - here or for associations do, and tenders for government contracts etc. may. You only do it once (or rarely for tenders). The client can expect not to get hassled.
A good client with whom a good working relationship exists will care enough to help out for membership or tenders if asked nicely. But I can't think of any circumstances where a client should be put in the position to deal with solicitations.
2) WWA is not the same as a reference.
Acting as a reference means being contacted, and involves a lot more effort, e.g. answering specific questions in a specific time frame. Clients seldom like being contacted.
3) A client willing to be contacted and invest their time for a translator is an indication for the working relationship being good and permanent. WWAs can be left after a single mini-project, even if there are no other projects in the foreseeable future.
As to sending a client to a database of other translators - clients have that internet thing these days. Its not like translators are hard to find. Good ones are, but a database doesn't provide that information. Clients ask me for recommendations quite frequently, especially when I can't fit a project in or it goes beyond my areas of expertise. I've never lost a client from sending them to a colleague.
If they did switch, the working relationship can't have been great to begin with. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | I have done so | Feb 8, 2018 |
I have a couple of direct clients with whom I have been working on and off for over 15 years. I know them well and asking them for a reference was no problem at all. I would never ask an agency-client for a reference for another agency, for all the reasons that have already been mentioned.
A short well-targeted test (400 words max) seems a reasonable way to consider whether our work looks like it might meet what an agent is looking for. Beyond that amount, the test should be paid f... See more I have a couple of direct clients with whom I have been working on and off for over 15 years. I know them well and asking them for a reference was no problem at all. I would never ask an agency-client for a reference for another agency, for all the reasons that have already been mentioned.
A short well-targeted test (400 words max) seems a reasonable way to consider whether our work looks like it might meet what an agent is looking for. Beyond that amount, the test should be paid for. Common sense dictates that after a test has been approved, an agency simply asks a newly registered translator to do smallish jobs to start with, that they are particularly careful to allow for close proof-reading and will gradually see if the translator is someone they wish to continue working with. If the proofreading boils down to editing and revision, then they will soon see that they are not likely to want to continue working with someone.
Never forget that these stages are also the opportunity for you as a translator to see if YOU want to work with them. In terms of the work supplied and so on, it may all seem fine, but if they are badly organised, finally pay lousy rates and have very lengthy payment terms, or, heaven forbid, pay late, then you may decide to drop the idea. The proof of the pudding is in the eating - for both! ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Interesting thread. | Feb 10, 2018 |
I had no idea so many people were able to get away with not giving references. I was uncomfortable being asked when I first started applying to agencies (for many of the reasons mentioned although some had never occurred to me) but before reading this thread I'd come to believe they were more or less compulsory, with agencies at least.
I've found that almost all of the large agencies (which are often the first port of call for translators in the early stages of their careers) demand... See more I had no idea so many people were able to get away with not giving references. I was uncomfortable being asked when I first started applying to agencies (for many of the reasons mentioned although some had never occurred to me) but before reading this thread I'd come to believe they were more or less compulsory, with agencies at least.
I've found that almost all of the large agencies (which are often the first port of call for translators in the early stages of their careers) demand them and you are physically unable to progress with the application process if you don't fill that section in. If you were to omit all of these companies from your prospects list, it would surely take you years longer to become established? Do these large companies typically accept that some translators won't give references and are these translators not disadvantaged as a result if they don't have very high demand language pairs or work in very high demand fields? I can understand it might work well if you're well established but as a beginner is it really accepted? ▲ Collapse
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| Put any name you like in the reference box | Feb 11, 2018 |
Vivien Green wrote:
....
I've found that almost all of the large agencies (which are often the first port of call for translators in the early stages of their careers) demand them and you are physically unable to progress with the application process if you don't fill that section in.
As long as you fill something in that space, you get by.
I have written
CIoL -- I do not give references
in the space where a reference is required.
Not sure I ever got the job, but it does get you a step further, and I have signed up with agencies who try to insist on references. When you get into contact with a real person, ask them if they ever give references to other agencies - they cannot reasonably ask for them if they are not also willing to give them. They then have to accept your other credentials or decide not to work with you.
I know translators sometimes desperately need jobs when they start out, but not appearing desperate is always a good tactic. Stick to your principles as long as you possibly can... because it pays in the end.
| | | | | Thanks Christine | Feb 12, 2018 |
I may try doing that in future although it does make me feel slightly nervous about diminishing my prospects. I suppose if I succeed doing that once though it will make me less nervous about doing it again.
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You have 5 WWAs. That should be enough.
In other words my advice would be to not jeopardise you current customer base. Some customers may get annoyed with requests for references and you certainly do not want to upset them.
| | | | Diana Obermeyer
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:21
Member (2013)
German to English
+ ...
| Large agencies | Feb 13, 2018 |
Vivien Green wrote:
I've found that almost all of the large agencies (which are often the first port of call for translators in the early stages of their careers) ...
Many of the large agencies also pay low rates, pay little attention to targeting projects to each translator's skillset, offer little constructive feedback, and are quick to make deductions from fees. I would say that's the worst place to start.
Smaller agencies that allocate specific translators to specific clients and offer collaboration, rather than pure project assignment might require a little extra effort in the beginning, but are a much better starting point IMHO. And once you get used to that kind of working relationship, it becomes much easier to stand your ground when the translation factories make unreasonable demands.
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Kay Denney
France
Local time: 15:21
French to English
Diana Obermeyer wrote:
Vivien Green wrote:
I've found that almost all of the large agencies (which are often the first port of call for translators in the early stages of their careers) ...
Many of the large agencies also pay low rates, pay little attention to targeting projects to each translator's skillset, offer little constructive feedback, and are quick to make deductions from fees. I would say that's the worst place to start.
Smaller agencies that allocate specific translators to specific clients and offer collaboration, rather than pure project assignment might require a little extra effort in the beginning, but are a much better starting point IMHO. And once you get used to that kind of working relationship, it becomes much easier to stand your ground when the translation factories make unreasonable demands.
I have never worked for any of the large agencies. The largest one I work for is also the one that pays the least, and I'll be getting rid of them once I've managed to get a couple more direct clients with a fair amount of work.
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