| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18] > | Moving on from freelance translation, starting a new career Thread poster: James Greenfield
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Lieven Malaise
Belgium
Local time: 16:51
Member (2020)
French to Dutch
+ ...
Carlos A R de Souza wrote:
This is why it's so crucial that our discussions focus less on individual achievements and more on our collective circumstances. We can only enhance our negotiating power as a group by staying together.
But the whole point is that we aren't together, and that we will never be. If you see how different the views about the translation industry are among translators themselves, how on earth could we impose certain rates then? Some people think MTPE is a disgrace, while others think it's perfectly fine. Some think a rate below 0,15 euros a word is unacceptable, while others are perfectly fine with 0,06 euros a word. Etcetera, etcetera.
[Bijgewerkt op 2024-02-21 07:46 GMT]
| | | | Dan Lucas 
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:51
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
| The dream that never dies, but is never realized either | Feb 21 |
Carlos A R de Souza wrote:
This is why it's so crucial that our discussions focus less on individual achievements and more on our collective circumstances. We can only enhance our negotiating power as a group by staying together.
But what, specifically, do you mean by "staying together"? Has there been any evolution in your thinking since the last time you brought this up, when you said we should unite and improve working conditions?
Collective action works when you have a cohesive workforce in a delimited geographic area supplying a clearly defined product or service that cannot be easily substituted, and therefore a captive or semi-captive consumer. Teachers, railway workers, that sort of thing.
If the staff on the Great Western Railway in South Wales were to go on strike, I would not be able to take a train from Carmarthen to London Paddington by catching a Japan Railway service instead. There is only one railway track, and only one operator of trains, so there is no easy way for me to avoid the consequences of strike action. It hurts me, the consumer, exactly as intended.
Last time I asked how you propose to reproduce those effects in an unregulated (HT Lefteris...) industry with a hugely diverse base of workers scattered over the entire face of the planet. I asked you to name one example of successful collective action in a global industry. You could not.
If a freelancer in my country of Wales were to go on strike - no, scratch that, if every freelancer in Wales were to go on strike, it would be damaging, but our clients would get round it. For example, they could just use translators from England, or the U.S., or wherever. Nobody is professionally irreplaceable and nobody's deathless prose is irreplaceable, including my own. (No offense Chris, but if you were hit by a bus tomorrow your clients would be just fine, after the initial scramble.)
And based on empirical experience, translators like you and I cannot even come to an agreement in this forum, let alone globally. There's not going to be a worldwide movement. It's a pipe dream and a waste of energy.
Sharing information among freelancers is a positive thing. Remind others about scams, give advice on pricing, suggest how beginners might deal with clients: it's all good. Most of it is repetitive, but it has to be because people don't go back and read previous threads.
But collective action beyond that? Collective action as a way of somehow forcing users of our services to pay more, or treat us better? It never has happened and it's not going to happen for all the reasons given above.
Finally, I am not trying to crush discussion or "dissenting" voices and I never have. But I think members of the forum have a right to challenge (civilly) half-baked ideas that have no foundation in either experience or theory, and are thus more likely to do harm than good. "But we must do SOMETHING!" is a cry of anguish, not an argument. It deserves sympathy, but not necessarily respect.
Dan
| | | | Kay Denney
France
Local time: 16:51
French to English
Lefteris Kritikakis wrote:
Carlos A R de Souza wrote: I'm aware a career isn't easy.
In a career you have promotions, benefits, building a resume, and the possibility to even become a Partner. An actual career implies progressing through different roles.
"Contract-based work" (hand-to-mouth gig) such as translating, is not a career.
It's not a business either. You don't own a business (which you can sell in the future).
It's not employment either (no benefits, no legal protection).
Oxford definition of "career": "an occupation undertaken for a significant period of a person's life and with opportunities for progress"
I am totally enjoying a career in translation! I worked at an agency for peanuts for a while, when being sure of getting at least peanuts was what worked best for me. I learned a lot about how agencies work as well as learning about translation. I translated, I proofread, I transcribed, I managed glossaries and TMs, I managed projects. I hired interns and colleagues, I put together teams for large projects.
Then I started freelancing as a translator, and within a short while was earning double what I earned in-house.
Then the true progress started as I got more and more work in fields that I find interesting, with opportunities to learn about subjects I really enjoy, still earning enough to be able to whittle away the clients who gave me boring work. And managing to forge fruitful and respectful relationships with my direct clients.
And now I hope to be able to coast along like that till retirement. The interesting subjects may change, because I'm interested in lots of different things.
It's maybe not the kind of career you were dreaming of, but then I suspect our definition of "progress" is not the same because I don't only think about the money.
[Edited at 2024-02-21 08:14 GMT]
| | | | Lieven Malaise
Belgium
Local time: 16:51
Member (2020)
French to Dutch
+ ...
| Being self-employed | Feb 21 |
Perhaps I'm too harsh on myself and therefore on others, but as a freelancer I knew since day 1 that I was on my own. It's intrinsic to being self-employed, so I don't even understand why so many people try to disregard that fact and try to make something from freelancing that it isn't.
I wonder what forum bakers, grocers and butchers use to ask for all sorts of advice or complain when they are opening a shop.
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Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:51
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
Dan Lucas wrote:
Collective action works when you have a cohesive workforce in a delimited geographic area supplying a clearly defined product or service that cannot be easily substituted, and therefore a captive or semi-captive consumer.
Actually, if every freelancer in the UK translating English to Welsh or Welsh to English went on strike then I think they would have a good chance of succeeding in their aims.
Why? Because Welsh is only widely used in Wales, and because I imagine that such freelancers could not easily be substituted, and because I imagine that the main uses of the services of such freelancers are central and governmental authorities that have a statutory requirement to provide materials in the Welsh language.
Searching the ProZ.com directory I see that there are only four members operating in the Welsh-English language pair, and only 113 non-members. For reference, Japanese has 479 members and 12,162 non-members. Spanish has 2,037 members, and 65,261 non-members.
So you have a small and presumably cohesive group of providers, most of whom live in a clearly delimited geographical area, providing a service that cannot be easily substituted. In this case, a strike or some other collective action might work.
Dan
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Carlos A R de Souza wrote:
However, my purpose here is not to boast about myself.
Rather, my focus is on the collective bargaining power of translators.
The crux of the matter in our discussions isn't the 10% of the translators are super rich and can afford a house in Malibu; instead, it is about addressing the struggles faced by the remaining 90% who find it difficult to sustain themselves solely through translation work, often needing to supplement their income elsewhere.
And it's not their fault.
The internet commoditizes many markets, and it has been widely discussed in this forum how translators have been suffering because of this trend ever since the 2000s. Even if a senior translator is successful in not having their rates cut, it's an ordeal to raise them.
That was not my purpose either. My aim was to challenge Lefteris' claims and give an example of what can still be achieved today.
Translators will never unite. All you can do is stand up for yourself. I've done my bit. Unfortunately most haven't (or can't*).
At first it can be scary standing up to agencies putting pressure on you to lower your prices, or not raise them even with inflation.
But what's better? Being offered 20,000 words a week at 2 cents, or doing just 5,000 words at 10 cents and having all that leisure time?
You can also refuse to be commoditised. What I offer is not the same as what translators half my price offer. (I don't happen to think that what I offer is necessarily worth twice as much, but in a capitalist economy that's their problem, not mine.)
For me, the one area where we could perhaps collectively have made a difference was countering the lies the big agencies spin to end-clients around quality. But I think it's now far too late for that.
*The elephant in the room is that, by definition, most translators are average or below-average and so cannot expect to be paid any more than an average rate. (Unless they are very good at marketing themselves, in which case they would probably be better off working in marketing!)
| | | | | I think we’re quite doomed... | Feb 21 |
A very interesting discussion indeed. I am a highly qualified translator specialised in finance, and here’s my point of view:
Both my husband and I have been translators for over 20 years and we have known for the last 5 years or so (since MT started to be prevalent) that the translation profession would, if not disappear, undergo profound changes. I read a few years ago an article which listed the professions that were doomed to disappear soon. Translation was first on the list, ... See more A very interesting discussion indeed. I am a highly qualified translator specialised in finance, and here’s my point of view:
Both my husband and I have been translators for over 20 years and we have known for the last 5 years or so (since MT started to be prevalent) that the translation profession would, if not disappear, undergo profound changes. I read a few years ago an article which listed the professions that were doomed to disappear soon. Translation was first on the list, with a predicted lifetime of 7 years (that was at least 3 or 4 years ago).
While I don’t think the translation profession will completely disappear, I do think we’re quite doomed – to be honest. There will be a need for far fewer translators and our job will mostly be MTPE. This will happen with many other jobs with the explosion of AI, which is only starting.
Around 2019, my husband and I decided it was time to consider other lines of work. In the last few years, we’ve both trained as coaches (as a life coach, and as a nutrition & health coach, respectively) – something that requires people skills and that hopefully won’t be replaced by machines any time soon. But starting a new business, especially when you’ve worked from home for 20 years and have few contacts, is difficult. Most of my income still comes from translation, but as someone said in this forum, there is increasing pressure on rates, even for highly specialised translators.
Also, I enjoy my work much less than before, because processing 5,000-6,000 words a day of MTPE is much less motivating than translating 2,500-3,000 words from scratch – less creative and much more tiring for your brain.
Thankfully I am a sworn translator and I get quite a few of these jobs through the Spanish embassy, and these won’t be taken over by MT any soon.
Since the coaching business is slow to take off, and revenues are slowly shrinking, I’m considering other short-term possible sources of revenue:
- Teaching Spanish to secondary school students for their final exams (as a Spanish speaker living in Ireland). I assume this is something most of us could do – teaching a language!
- Renting our spare room on Airbnb
- Taking tourists for walks in our local National Park through Airbnb Experiences (I’m already doing this, it doesn’t pay off but I greatly enjoy it)
- Jo Macdonald gave me an idea with the camper van rental – maybe I could have a Glamping pod built in our garden and rent it too?
It is definitely a concern and I think we all need to be realistic that the translation industry as we knew it will soon be gone. Reading all your inputs has been very constructive. Good luck to all. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Overcrowded language pairs | Feb 21 |
No influence on the rates? In some very common language pairs, the offer outstrips the demand massively. Are we underestimating this? It's funny (or not) how some "successful" posters here seem to inhabit completely different language territories. Of course, it's not their "fault" and kudos to them for such an astute choice, but sometimes I hear a touch of a patronising tone coming from the higher echelons.
That said, I think I did ok, even in my overcrowded language pair. I've ear... See more No influence on the rates? In some very common language pairs, the offer outstrips the demand massively. Are we underestimating this? It's funny (or not) how some "successful" posters here seem to inhabit completely different language territories. Of course, it's not their "fault" and kudos to them for such an astute choice, but sometimes I hear a touch of a patronising tone coming from the higher echelons.
That said, I think I did ok, even in my overcrowded language pair. I've earned enough and managed to put 4 kids through uni. I did have to work more than 25 hours a week, though...  ▲ Collapse
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| Some sharp points here! | Feb 21 |
I've been impressed by the sharp insights shared here.
While I'd love to engage with each point raised, time constraints prevent me from doing so without neglecting other priorities.
However, I do want to address a few critical discussions.
But let's start with this:
Roser Bosch Casademont
There will be a need for far fewer translators and our job will mostly be MTPE. This will happen with many other jobs with the explosion of AI, which is only starting.
The recent advances in AI are a threat not just to translators, but to all works in intellectual fields.
The towards machine translation post-editing (MTPE) is not isolated to our field, but indicative of a broader transformation affecting all intellectual professions.
While physical labor roles may seem more secure for the moment, due to the high costs and limited capabilities of robotics, this security is temporary.
Once affordable, versatile robots become available, no job will be immune to automation's reach.
If this trajectory comes to pass, a significant portion of the workforce will be made redundant.
Now, addressing Dan's points:
Dan:
It should be possible to empathise with the OP's plight (as many of us did) without accepting the argument that his fate is inevitable for the rest of us.
You do acknowledge that a few lucky translators will achieve professional success if they work hard, and also that part of the success is a stroke of luck.
However, this raises a pertinent question: Is it acceptable for market dynamics to dictate our profession's landscape, especially when many of us might not thrive under such conditions?
Ignoring the struggles of our peers, even as we find personal success, is not a solution.
Dan:
Last time I asked how you propose to reproduce those effects in an unregulated (HT Lefteris...) industry with a hugely diverse base of workers scattered over the entire face of the planet. I asked you to name one example of successful collective action in a global industry. You could not.
Unfortunately, I thought your question was just rhetoric, and I had personal errands to attend to, so I could not write a detailed answer.
Either way, this is a complex question. I don't think anyone here would have a definitive solution to it.
The challenge of organizing collective action in our highly fragmented and global industry is daunting. But dismissing the possibility of making a difference — whether through local initiatives or broader efforts — merely because it is difficult, seems defeatist.
While I may not have an immediate solution to this complex issue, it's a conversation worth having.
But tell us what you think. What strategies do you propose we explore to empower translators?
Your point also seems to resonate with what seems to be Christopher's core belief in this issue:
Christopher:
All you can do is stand up for yourself. I've done my bit. Unfortunately most haven't (or can't*).
*The elephant in the room is that, by definition, most translators are average or below-average and so cannot expect to be paid any more than an average rate. (Unless they are very good at marketing themselves, in which case they would probably be better off working in marketing!)
The flaw in your reasoning is believing you have any negotiating power if you are "better than average".
The challenge with going up against the vast translation industry as just one translator is that it rarely ends in our favor. These companies often juggle numerous language pairs—sometimes 20 to 30—at once, employing hundreds of translators, especially the larger agencies.
Their preference leans towards translators who are seen as "easy to work with," meaning those who meet deadlines, don't stir trouble, and don't push for higher pay. Conversely, translators who advocate for better pay or working conditions typically find themselves sidelined and labeled as troublesome, despite their exceptional skills.
This tendency to favor compliance and convenience over excellence has pushed companies towards artificial intelligence (AI) for translation tasks. AI, with its imperfections, doesn't seek negotiations or raises; it's always available, simplifying operations for these companies.
Therefore, individual translators find themselves in a tight spot, squeezed by competition from their peers willing to accept less and the impersonal efficiency of AI, which delivers "good enough" results.
[Edited at 2024-02-21 13:31 GMT]
| | | | | For the sake of due form | Feb 21 |
Boy, you lot really do have a lot of spare time for here. I wonder why....
Anyway, I wanted to be clear rather than play silly buggers, so back to yesterday briefly
Dan Lucas left out a bit of the quote (!):
Charlie Bavington wrote:
The unfortunate corollary is that anyone who is honest about sub-optimum circumstances .........Is it surprising when the tone of some responses to posts in that vein is essentially either "you must be doing it wrong" or "it's not affecting me so it isn't happening"?
The people who are doing badly are as guilty of brute-force extrapolation from individual circumstances to derive a general principle as the people who claim to be doing okay.
.....
It should be possible to empathise with the OP's plight (as many of us did) without accepting the argument that his fate is inevitable for the rest of us.
Dan
Not the slightest argument with any of that (including the snipped bit) but that wasn't really the point I was making, although it's not unrelated. I've said myself in this thread that I disagree with any kind of attempt to propose Universal Truths about translation markets.
No, my point was intended to be about the dismissal of personal experience.
Let's try it like this.
If there is a statement "this is happening to me so it's happening to everyone", as you said, we are right to challenge, even deny, the second part. Absolutely.
It is however in my view disagreeable and unhelpful to do the same to the first part. That's what I meant. And we have seen it in this thread.
Another loose end - my blog post about No Peanuts: https://cbavington.com/blog/2011/02/06/no-peanuts-no-thanks/
(replies are off so I'm not trying to divert the conversation away from here!)
| | | | | They have to suffer, too | Feb 21 |
Lieven Malaise wrote:
I wonder what forum bakers, grocers, and butchers use to ask for all sorts of advice or complain when they are opening a shop.
All small businesses today close their shops because of the bigger discounters like Lidl, Aldi, Tesco, and Walmart, name them. Those shops more and more tend to close their shops, if there are any left.
But craftsmen (like plumbers) are well connected and have their internet forums, where they get advice and tips on how to fairly scrounge off their customers.
But, what about all the translator's associations? What advice do they have in spare for their expensive membership fees?
| | | | Gregory Thomas (X)
United States
Local time: 09:51
English to Greek
+ ...
| Income diversification | Feb 21 |
I see quite a few are more pessimistic than I have expressed. I turn on a small faucet, and next thing you know we have Niagara falls.
My main point was that we have to take care of our resumes and other income sources ASAP. Because candidate brides (large agencies) with so many suitors (thousands of desperate translators with their eyes popped-out and tongues sticking out like cartoons) do not make for "advantageous negotiations".
Have you seen the hungry people next to UN trucks in... See more I see quite a few are more pessimistic than I have expressed. I turn on a small faucet, and next thing you know we have Niagara falls.
My main point was that we have to take care of our resumes and other income sources ASAP. Because candidate brides (large agencies) with so many suitors (thousands of desperate translators with their eyes popped-out and tongues sticking out like cartoons) do not make for "advantageous negotiations".
Have you seen the hungry people next to UN trucks in the desert? Don't be like that, diversify.
Two days ago in a humorous "bad-translations" Facebook site, a Chinese scammer posted an ad about "tons of books to translate". Many members responded "I'm interested". It was not a button, they had to type it. Let that sink in.
Their preference leans towards translators who are seen as "easy to work with,"
There is one (1) agency that broke even this rule, but it's a different topic.
Who are the happiest translators? Same as "who are the happiest musicians": Part timers in cheap(er) countries working with good small agencies, who have no problem occasionally rejecting jobs for any reason (including "I'll better watch a movie"). No mystery there - income diversification and low living expenses are great things. ▲ Collapse
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Gregory Thomas (X)
United States
Local time: 09:51
English to Greek
+ ...
| Is this forum Time Travel? | Feb 21 |
There will be a need for far fewer translators and our job will mostly be MTPE.
Is this forum time travel? The largest agency (monopolizes quite a few language pairs) has already been MTPEing 95% of volume for 4 years, including bad PDFs (which the remote uninsured workers, sorry, "linguists", have to figure out).
Matthias Brombach wrote: But craftsmen (like plumbers)...
Not in the US anymore (for many years). Companies employ them now, $22-35/hour. Very few independents, mostly furniture makers, making much of their income posting YouTube videos.
Matthias Brombach wrote: But, what about all the translator's associations?
Vanity associations offering vanity certificates. In the USA the cost to open one is $0. No license is required. I'm thinking of opening an "Association of Midwestern Pop Musicians". I will offer handsome certificates and a monthly magazine with pages thick enough to wrap coffee mugs.
Thankfully I am a sworn translator
Back in 1990 I was learning Autocad to sell it to architects/engineers. A few years later it replaced most of them - some of them still get some bucks certifying machine-produced drawings, because they're sworn. You're not the only sworn translator, so don't think of anything as certain, diversify as much as you can.
| | | | Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:51
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
| Perhaps too pessimistic | Feb 21 |
Matthias Brombach wrote:
All small businesses today close their shops because of the bigger discounters like Lidl, Aldi, Tesco, and Walmart, name them. Those shops more and more tend to close their shops, if there are any left.
There are plenty left around here. I'm more than happy to pay extra for a good butcher or a good baker - even an uncultured oaf like myself can tell the difference in the product. We buy all our meat from the local butcher, most of our cheese from the deli, and nearly all of our bread from the baker. Vegetables mostly from the market garden, when available.
Two or three years ago a local bakery/café started up in Cardigan and the local cynics all laughed. “Who's going to pay three quid for a doughnut?” they asked. Lots of people, apparently. The place is thriving, despite the Tesco just up the road where you can get doughnuts for 50p. There's a lesson there.
I am not particularly enamoured of translators associations though.
Dan
| | | | Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:51
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
Carlos A R de Souza wrote:
You do acknowledge that a few lucky translators will achieve professional success if they work hard, and also that part of the success is a stroke of luck.
That is not an accurate summary of my view, which is that success in life is not random, and that over the medium to long term people tend to end up with the results they deserve relative to others in similar circumstances.
Luck (good and bad) is random as far as I can tell, but some people will be better prepared to take advantage of good luck and more resilient in the face of bad luck. Most of us will have a fairly balanced mix of both in the course of our lives.
Is it acceptable for market dynamics to dictate our profession's landscape, especially when many of us might not thrive under such conditions?
Yes.
Ignoring the struggles of our peers, even as we find personal success, is not a solution.
"Solution" suggests that I'm in some way involved in the problem, which is not the case. I am not responsible in any way for the career success or failure of other people.
If people are struggling in a career they should try to improve themselves and, if that does not work out, they should try a different career. Conversely, if they are successful I don't consider myself to have any kind of claim on the positive outcomes of that success.
I don't think anyone here would have a definitive solution to it.
If you can't find an example it suggests that there is no precedent for successful collective action in a global unregulated industry.
But dismissing the possibility of making a difference — whether through local initiatives or broader efforts — merely because it is difficult, seems defeatist.
No, just realistic, in the apparent absence of any evidence to the contrary. My time is precious; I prefer not to waste it in pointless behavior.
What strategies do you propose we explore to empower translators?
I don't propose to get involved with the careers of other translators in any way at all, any more than I intend to get involved in the careers of dentists, or wheat farmers, or the guys who empty the bins for us. They are responsible for their lives.
I am responsible for my own life and those of my dependents. My first and foremost duty is to protect them and provide for them until they can look after themselves. I find that is difficult enough.
Regards,
Dan
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